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[theinevitable]

lfm, i feel like what you are missing sometimes is the understanding that... people can be just as smart as you, and just as good as you, and come to completely different conclusions about how to live their lives.

to be fair, a-cap, the protestant work ethic does blow pretty bad.

[dejavroom]

(...)skeletons with daggers leading pyramid schemes.

Admittedly, this would be a kickass idea for a trippy comic book story.

[jay-ell]

All I'm really saying is that religion's a mechanism that functions to turn our essential search for meaning into THE convenient means of social control.

Opiate of the masses, et cetera?  Yeah, I've heard this one before. 

I believe in God.  Worse yet, I believe in a loving, omnipotent creator God who created a covenant with Abraham and then sent a messiah to fulfill that covenant and extend it to all the people of the earth.  And I go to church every Sunday to remember and celebrate that belief.  So I'm probably one of the brainwashed sheep that so turn your stomach, LFM, but hear me out anyway.  I don't think we've had the opportunity to fight yet, and I'm thinking today's as good a day as any. 

I've never understood what the whole religion vs. science debate was really all about.  I mean, yes, Science says that the earth was created in a giant explosion caused by...something...and the Bible says it was crafted by the hand of God.  Many mainstream Christians would say that the Big Bang and evolution were the tools God used to create the universe and everything in it, and that Genesis can't be interpreted literally.  I take a different tack.  So maybe God created the universe with a Word six billion years ago, and maybe He did it with a giant explosion thirteen billion years ago.  I don't really care how or when He did it, or really even if He did it at all -- the point is, the universe is here, and we have to live in it. 

Seems to me the Bible never claims to be a scientific text, or to replace science.  Seems to me that it's more a manual for how we ought to live -- if you're Jewish, by keeping God's commandments, and if you're Christian, by following the example of Christ.  Sure, there's a lot of stuff in there that is open to interpretation, and sometimes it's been interpreted to mean "kill everyone who doesn't believe like you do," but that's the error of human reasoning, not the fault of the Book itself.  When I read the Bible -- and admittedly, it's been a little while since I've really studied it on my own -- I find that at its core, it describes the variety of human relationships and how we ought (or ought not, in some cases) to treat one another. 

Because here's my theory on the meaning of life.  I know that's not what we're debating here, but I feel it's germane because it influences how I interpret the whole of religion and theology.  I believe in the triune God, and I believe he placed us each here for a purpose.  And I believe we all have the same purpose: to learn everything we can about how to behave and relate to each other so that when we die, we will be prepared to finally have that perfect relationship with God that we all seek, consciously or otherwise.  (Intercourse with divinity, as you put it.) 

I believe that every relationship we have on Earth -- parent/child, peers, spouses -- expresses a different aspect of God's love for us and how he wants us to learn to love him.  The relationship between parent and child is perhaps the most complex, but in short, it shows us the one-sided love that God has for us.  While we will never love God as much as he loves us (as I know from being both a parent and a child), he loves us unconditionally as our "Father."  The relationship between peers is what God was getting at when he sent Jesus to live and walk among us and experience life as we experience it -- the "Son" part of the trinity.  The romantic love that we share with a partner gives us a small taste of the passion of the Holy Spirit, a preview of the bliss of heaven and the desire to strive eternally to please someone other than ourselves.  These are the lessons encompassed by the Bible, expressed in many ways and through many different means in order to reach the widest possible audience. 

So given that interpretation, I don't give a rat's ass whether Eve was created from Adam's rib or we were all swinging from trees about a hundred generations back.  I live in a world where monkeys are monkeys and men are men, and all I need to know from the Bible is how to treat the people around me, and all I need to know from Science is how to not fuck up the planet or my body any worse than it is, 'cause I don't know how much longer I'm gonna be stuck here. 

Those two things, in my opinion, never need to meet. 

[jaydub]

JL: I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[wombat]

Dang, I am torn. I am impressed by JL's analysis, but Ash is right, and I personally am sore in need of more shenanigans.

[CortJstr]

Dang, I am torn. I am impressed by JL's analysis, but Ash is right, and I personally am sore in need of more shenanigans.

My god can beat up your god. I bet all your god created was british food and french comedy. Also, it walks like a duck with the gout.

[jaydub]

I was originally going to goad her by asking her if she's sure she's not Catholic, but I thought the meme phrase was better standing by itself.

I guess the better question is whether I'm sure I'm not Lutheran.

[littlefallsmets]

And if that works for you, personally, jay-elle... mazeltov, nostrovia, skoal... I am seriously glad it works for you.

It sounds like you've worked out your own personal situation with The Potential Underlying Reality and it's healthy.

I'm talking about the big organized stuff that demands meetings and money and motherfuckers designated to serve as paid intermediaries between you and the deity of your reckoning because it serves an organization's profitability to tell you that you don't know how to deal with The Great Beyond, just you and Whatever That Is.

One potential translation of "Israel" is "wrestles with God" and... I've always liked that.

As long as you've done the work yourself... with the intelligence you always show around here... I totally respect your path.

I'm just saying, I don't trust any system that says it gets to tell you what divinity is/does/wants/says... these things can only be scams or madness or both.

And in case there is something like that really out there, I'm working on my half-nelson. Just in case, just in case.

[milhouse]

Seems to me the Bible never claims to be a scientific text, or to replace science.  Seems to me that it's more a manual for how we ought to live -- if you're Jewish, by keeping God's commandments, and if you're Christian, by following the example of Christ.  Sure, there's a lot of stuff in there that is open to interpretation, and sometimes it's been interpreted to mean "kill everyone who doesn't believe like you do," but that's the error of human reasoning, not the fault of the Book itself.  When I read the Bible -- and admittedly, it's been a little while since I've really studied it on my own -- I find that at its core, it describes the variety of human relationships and how we ought (or ought not, in some cases) to treat one another. 

If I knew more people who believed this I'd be much closer to contentment. As it stands I see much more of the "convenient means of social control" lfm mentioned. I've actively pursed this conversation while several people. It's a spirit quest of mine..

[dejavroom]

As it stands I see much more of the "convenient means of social control" lfm mentioned.

So perhaps there exists a tiny chance of recognizing these occurrences as nothing more than anecdotal evidence which, while being irrefutably strong in its capacity to support claims of crookedness in Religion, it is also irretrievably weak as an argument for proving that all of Religion is crooked, since said occurrences are particular, personal experiences largely affected by the randomness of geography? No?

[dejavroom]

(I should, shouldn't I? But part of me is also waiting for more shenanigans).

[AugustWest]

I believe that the turtle moves.

[jay-ell]

It sounds like you've worked out your own personal situation with The Potential Underlying Reality and it's healthy.

I'm talking about the big organized stuff that demands meetings and money and motherfuckers designated to serve as paid intermediaries between you and the deity of your reckoning because it serves an organization's profitability to tell you that you don't know how to deal with The Great Beyond, just you and Whatever That Is.

See, I knew you would say that, and I am ready for you. 

The thing is, you can't separate the church from its people.  You can't say, "Oh, I'm not talking about YOU Christians, I'm talking about THOSE Christians.  The ones who want to ban gay marriage and put the Ten Commandments in the county courthouse and criminalize abortion in all fifty states."  Because you can't say, "Well, clearly, jayell has given her beliefs a lot of thought, since it makes some sort of sense even if I disagree.  But these other people -- these people whose opinions I cannot understand -- they must be un-examined and un-informed, to think such things."  Because they believe what they believe, and they have reasons for those beliefs. 

It would be like if I said, "The reason atheists don't believe in God is because they are so self-centered that they can't see past their own pain, and without a lack of comprehension of all human suffering they cannot conceive of a higher purpose.  They just want their own pain to disappear, regardless of the cost to others.  And in this state, in the utter absence of compassion for humanity, atheists lack the ability to conceive of a compassionate God who nonetheless allows evil and pain on an individual level for the benefit of mankind as a whole." 

You know, present company excluded, this must be how all atheists think, or else they would not be so threatened by Christians such as to be offended by images of the Nativity at Christmastime, and the like. 

Present company excluded, of course. 

[theinevitable]

The thing is, you can't separate the church from its people.  You can't say, "Oh, I'm not talking about YOU Christians, I'm talking about THOSE Christians.  The ones who want to ban gay marriage and put the Ten Commandments in the county courthouse and criminalize abortion in all fifty states."  Because you can't say, "Well, clearly, jayell has given her beliefs a lot of thought, since it makes some sort of sense even if I disagree.  But these other people -- these people whose opinions I cannot understand -- they must be un-examined and un-informed, to think such things."  Because they believe what they believe, and they have reasons for those beliefs.

I do not agree. I am working on getting myself to a point where I can respect people who live their lives in a way differently from mine. And I think I am doing pretty well. But the point where I hit a roadblock and just get mad is when I get to people whose "life choice" is to not respect my life choices or that of my friends.
I am not OK with this life choice. I am not OK with people raising their children and telling them that being a christian means hating those who don't follow their beliefs-- and I've encountered a lot of this in my life.
I can handle it a lot. I can handle people making little comments, I can handle that maybe some people I love have families like this, etc. I can justify it to a large degree, and I can love and accept these people as individuals. I can accept that someone can have been raised a certain way and be racist, or sexist, or bigoted in one way or another, but still be a good person on the whole.
But accept this system of religion? accept that these christians are just as legit as the ones who follow the truly beautiful and beneficial parts of Jesus' teachings, instead of getting hung up on Old Testament books about stoning sinners? Never. Never.

[jay-ell]

Now that that's out of the way, since my kids are behaving, let me go back and pick up some of the comments I've been neglecting.

I was originally going to goad her by asking her if she's sure she's not Catholic, but I thought the meme phrase was better standing by itself.

I guess the better question is whether I'm sure I'm not Lutheran.

It's not a Lutheran thing, what I said before about relationships.  My mom spent a couple of years in seminary when I was a kid and she has always encouraged me to ask hard questions and to seek my own answers, that's where it all came from.  I'm not a fan of any particular organized religion, personally -- I go where I feel I can grow.  The Lutheran church is my home for the moment because I found a community that I enjoy and that feeds me and my family spiritually.  But I wouldn't call myself "A Lutheran."  There are some great things about the Lutheran church, but I don't agree with everything they teach and practice.  There are also a lot of wonderful things about the Roman Catholic church, the Baptist church, the Orthodox church, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and the LDS church.  (Not Scientology, though.  They're wackos.) 

I believe that the turtle moves.

Amen, my brother. 

I do not agree. I am working on getting myself to a point where I can respect people who live their lives in a way differently from mine. And I think I am doing pretty well. But the point where I hit a roadblock and just get mad is when I get to people whose "life choice" is to not respect my life choices or that of my friends.
I am not OK with this life choice. I am not OK with people raising their children and telling them that being a christian means hating those who don't follow their beliefs-- and I've encountered a lot of this in my life.
I can handle it a lot. I can handle people making little comments, I can handle that maybe some people I love have families like this, etc. I can justify it to a large degree, and I can love and accept these people as individuals. I can accept that someone can have been raised a certain way and be racist, or sexist, or bigoted in one way or another, but still be a good person on the whole.
But accept this system of religion? accept that these christians are just as legit as the ones who follow the truly beautiful and beneficial parts of Jesus' teachings, instead of getting hung up on Old Testament books about stoning sinners? Never. Never.

Yes, but you can't discount the whole of the Church, or certain denominations, or whatnot, over the intolerance of a few of its adherents.  Even if those adherents are the leadership. 

You can't say, "People who believe in God can still behave like assholes, so it's better not to believe in God at all." 

Actually, you *can* say that, if you really want to.  But it doesn't make you any better than the hateful Christians who use the name of God to justify their prejudices.  So I don't really recommend it.