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[CortJstr]

Well... if Jesus was a beach ball in 1517, you would have seen a scene where Martin Luther just mad ran with it under his arm to a new beach, and lots of people ran away with him.

I guess the main reason I'm confused (other than the obvious "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.") is the one-sided seething hatred. Like these tracts seem to say that catholics are like Hitler times Vlad the Impaler, but the catholic church is like, "protestants? Oh, fine people. They'll get into heaven no problem."

[lprkn]

According to my understanding of Catholicism, pretty much everybody gets into heaven eventually? Like, purgatory sucks, but you don't stay there forever.

[AugustWest]

Despite his writings to the contrary, I get the feeling that deep in his heart of hearts, Jack T. Chick believes that you're going to hell unless you are Jack T. Chick.  And you richly deserve it, you perverted heretic you.

[dejavroom]

According to my understanding of Catholicism, pretty much everybody gets into heaven eventually? Like, purgatory sucks, but you don't stay there forever.

But Hell is forever, if you're into that kind of thing.

[CortJstr]

According to my understanding of Catholicism, pretty much everybody gets into heaven eventually? Like, purgatory sucks, but you don't stay there forever.

Mostly right. What they taught us in CCD was if you get sent to hell that's it. Game over. But anybody can get into heaven as long as they were a good person. Stuff like going to church, the sacraments, and believing in Jesus speed the process but a hard-line atheist or hindu or even protestant will get there eventually as long as they did unto others and all that.

[dejavroom]

I guess the main reason I'm confused (other than the obvious "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.") is the one-sided seething hatred.

Mostly because Catholicism adheres to practices that are understood by the Protestant faith as downright corrupt and, worse, corrupting in nature. But the main reason for the beef could, I think, be established thusly: To a Catholic, a Protestant isn't actively doing anything wrong - he just isn't doing the things that would formalize his acceptance of Salvation through the Church and all that it entails w/r/t the person's relationship with God (so maybe they feel a little like thinking "Hey, catch up, little fella!"); while, in the Protestant perspective, Catholics not only are not doing the things God would want them to, they are also actively doing harmful deeds with them death cookies and whatnot. Of course the mileage varies from Protestant denomination to denomination, I'd wager (in a world where you have working institutions such as "Jews for Christ", surely you can see how a guy could get confused).

[colmore]

So yeah, in highschool some friends of mine and I were able to collect over half the tracts in print, just from going about our lives and having them handed to us.  Then for my sister's 17th birthday we all chipped in and got her the sampler pack (it's like $40 and totally worth it).  I drew a fake one as a campaign ad for a friend in student government. "No! You Were Wrong! You did not accept Lanier Nielson as your one true treasurer!"

Chick might be the most printed author in history.  They have printed over a billion of those things in over a hundred languages.  They reach an audience somewhat similar in size to the Rolling Stones'.  It's fuck*ng nuts.  If you can track down the issue of The Imp about Chick and Chick Inc, you really should.  100% Authentic American Crazy.

[Arachno-capitalist]

I'm under the impression that any mainline Christian reading of the Bible adheres to the idea that no one can get into Heaven without at least accepting Jesus. Protestants and Catholics appear to hold this true, but differ on whether salvation is through the Grace of God, or the Good Works of Man.
The idea that Catholic dogma preaches that anyone will eventually get into heaven is false. Catholicism depends on a "meaningful relationship with God". This is why it runs into things like unbaptized dead babies going to Limbo, and questionable fate of the severely retarded.

[wombat]

Well... if Jesus was a beach ball in 1517, you would have seen a scene where Martin Luther just mad ran with it under his arm to a new beach, and lots of people ran away with him, and soon lots of people had their own balls which they swear it's the official one.

I want to be in dejavroom's Sunday school class.

[dejavroom]

Also: Nice little essay on the Schism here. I think it's very apropos of the direction the discussion seems to be going, since it deals with the central issue in the Reform: What after all will save your ass?

[Victoria Waterfield]

Everyone's had some pretty good things to say here, I just want to add that:

1. A year or so ago the Roman Catholic Church stated that Limbo is only a "possible theological hypothesis", and not official doctrine in any way; and
2. The various Orthodox churches have as good a claim at being the "original church" as the Roman Catholic Church does.

[AugustWest]

2. The various Orthodox churches have as good a claim at being the "original church" as the Roman Catholic Church does.

ORIGINAL PETE'S!!!

On the Rock since  0 A.D.

There's no denying -- Original Pete's!

[CortJstr]

I'm under the impression that any mainline Christian reading of the Bible adheres to the idea that no one can get into Heaven without at least accepting Jesus. Protestants and Catholics appear to hold this true, but differ on whether salvation is through the Grace of God, or the Good Works of Man.
The idea that Catholic dogma preaches that anyone will eventually get into heaven is false. Catholicism depends on a "meaningful relationship with God". This is why it runs into things like unbaptized dead babies going to Limbo, and questionable fate of the severely retarded.

Obviously I've never read any like notarized church documents or anything, I can just say what my various CCD teachers said. We always used to get this little 4-page handout, kind of like the Weekly Reader in school but all catholicism-fied. The back page was usually Q&A format and one week it was "can muslims get into heaven" and the answer was what I said above about just being a good person. The only part I'm hazy about is if it made a distinction between atheism through ignorance and through choice.

I've never actually heard the unbaptized baby in limbo from any church spokesperson. I don't know if that's because I went to a touchy-feely church that avoided the topic, if the dogma changed and some point, or if it was never actually catholic dogma to begin with.

Of course I haven't attended any church since the 2000 election so for me this is purely an intellectual exercise. Until recently there was this evangelizing asshole at my work and I used to always use the "why would Jesus have Peter start a church if it was the wrong church" argument to stymie him. That plus the conflicting gospels.


AW: Cann'd. 0 AD not being an actual year actually makes it funnier.

[colmore]

America makes more sense when you realize just how much Calvinism had to do with its founding.  Not those particular millionaires and billionaires that threw the coup, but the common culture of the middle class.  We believe that people with good souls will be visible on earth because when they work hard they get a good life.  That's the only context in which I can make my home culture make any sort of sense.

[KeithHernandez]

Everyone's had some pretty good things to say here, I just want to add that:

1. A year or so ago the Roman Catholic Church stated that Limbo is only a "possible theological hypothesis", and not official doctrine in any way; and
2. The various Orthodox churches have as good a claim at being the "original church" as the Roman Catholic Church does.

I took a lot of Eastern Europe courses in college, and one of them was about Eastern Orthodox.  The teacher said it is the oldest christian church then this catholic and her got into a hour long argument until he stormed out and never came back.  Good times.