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[theinevitable]

oh, i left out the best part that has ever happened:

the night of the inauguration, my new roommate sent me the following text message:

hey man, just got back from [the grocery store] and forgot to get milk and bread. LOL. if you pass a store on the way home can you get some

...if I pass a store on the 13 hour drive home. WHAT
...he remembered to buy three kinds of beer, but didn't get milk or bread. WHAT

[jaydub]

I do not recite the pledge, as I find fealty oaths morally dangerous.

"...I will to [my Lord] be true and faithful, and love all which he loves and shun all which he shuns, according to the laws of God and the order of the world. Nor will I ever with will or action, through word or deed, do anything which is unpleasing to him, on condition that he will hold to me as I shall deserve it, and that he will perform everything as it was in our agreement when I submitted myself to him and chose his will."
-source

[Bobby Isosceles]

So, atheists and agnostics are so insular that their only exposure to Christianity comes in the form of the hate-mongering blowhards on TV? 

Christians stormed the Library of Alexandria, with Constantine's blessing, and burned nearly all of the books and scrolls there.

Centuries of Popes would punish heresy or other free-thinking thought with death, only to be furthered under the Inquisition.

Protestants, fighting to break free of the Catholic Pope, were every bit as restrictive toward their communities. Jean Chauvin (John Calvin) and Zwingli imposed martial law on their respective cantons in what is now Switzerland.


The hate-mongering blowhards have been around a lot longer than TV.

[jay-ell]

I just want to say to Doc: no, really -- the atheists and agnostics I'm talking about who view religious affiliation as a sign of weak will or low intelligence -- these are friends of mine.  Although at this point I'm thinking maybe I need different friends? 

I'd really like to contribute further to this discussion -- and also to comment on inev's adventures -- but my son just dumped a box of Ritz on the kitchen floor and walked over the crackers while wearing galoshes, so I have other things to attend to. 

Besides, this is too much wander, even for us. 

[theinevitable]

So, atheists and agnostics are so insular that their only exposure to Christianity comes in the form of the hate-mongering blowhards on TV? 

The thing is, when you think "Christians," your brain doesn't pull up "those hundreds of nice people who I never talked about religion with, but who are good people who also happen to believe in jesus"
what comes to mind is:
1. george w bush
2. people who tell my friends they are going to hell
3. people who tell me I am going to hell
4. people who ask what church I go to, and go cold when I say "i don't go to church"
5. people who carry signs saying "Homo Sex is Sin" at the Inauguration (did I mention that I only saw 3 protesters the whole 4 days I was there?)

And I guess eventually along the list there come up some pleasant people... but even with them, I often got a subtle judgement feeling.

Such as my friend who I knew for 6 years before she realized I wasn't Jewish.
I was a good person, and she knew I didn't go to church, so she assumed I must assiduously follow some other faith.

also my parents had horrible experiences with christianity as kids, and while they tried to raise me to be "spiritual" in some abstract way, most of what I got as a kid was that Christianity was where your parents made you go to church and pray and be scared of God, and you couldn't say no or they would yell at you.

[Carlos del Vaca]

Inev, I am glad you did not wind up in the Purple Tunnel of Doom.

[KeithHernandez]

Jay-ell, by belonging to a group you are associating yourself with that groups actions.  You are also responsible for them in both resources and support.  Does whatever you get out of Christianity make up for what Christians do and have done in the past? 

Atheists and agnostics do not have a similar problem.

[Bobby Isosceles]

The thing is, when you think "Christians," your brain doesn't pull up "those hundreds of nice people who I never talked about religion with, but who are good people who also happen to believe in jesus"
what comes to mind is:
1. george w bush
2. people who tell my friends they are going to hell
3. people who tell me I am going to hell
4. people who ask what church I go to, and go cold when I say "i don't go to church"
5. people who carry signs saying "Homo Sex is Sin" at the Inauguration (did I mention that I only saw 3 protesters the whole 4 days I was there?)
.

Anticipating a response:

JL is probably going to say "well, those aren't REAL Christians."

People in the above list would look at more moderate Christians and say "well, these softies aren't REAL Christians."

Any group with such a nebulous definition and yet with such overarching clout is never a good thing.

[Ruta Bagas]

If JL says that I will eat my hat.

[theinevitable]

to be clear: I am not saying that I think those people are "real" christians or whatever... but they are what come to mind.

they are much more memorable as CHRISTIANS in all caps.

[Doc]

Although at this point I'm thinking maybe I need different friends? 

This would be my thinking. Beats me why most dudes suck, sure as hell ain't my scene.

The thing is, when you think "Christians," your brain doesn't pull up "those hundreds of nice people who I never talked about religion with, but who are good people who also happen to believe in jesus"
what comes to mind is:
1. george w bush
2. people who tell my friends they are going to hell
3. people who tell me I am going to hell
4. people who ask what church I go to, and go cold when I say "i don't go to church"
5. people who carry signs saying "Homo Sex is Sin" at the Inauguration (did I mention that I only saw 3 protesters the whole 4 days I was there?)

Again this is so not at all my experience, sure occasionally I see preachers in the city but the things they are saying are generally so ridiculous that I treat them as the anomaly not the other way around. I actually had a really weird moment yesterday when I was reminded that the local catholic hospital wouldn't perform abortions. I mean, of course they wouldn't but I'm not used to thinking of religious people as being vastly different to myself.

[pmcd9]

There's No One as Irish as Barack Obama