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[lprkn]

I probably posted this already, but I don't care and I will continue to do so whilst this machine is to me.

Stephen Fry's podcast on language.

[Ruta Bagas]

This is all very well, but a large proportion 'rules' are just bollocks and won't improve style a jot (see split infinitives, ending sentences with prepositions, Strunk & White).

Even when they're not, though, I suspect the real advantage of rules of this sort is that they're easy to teach - it's much harder to teach someone the kind of subtle appreciation of style that will produce writing that's actually good, rather than merely inoffensive. For plenty of people, of course, inoffensive is a step up and will do just fine, so an nice list of rules is useful for the occasions that they do need to write something substantial. But some people will recommend books like Strunk & White to undergraduate English students, and I can't see that being anything but harmful.

[AugustWest]

Have you read Strunk and White?  It's primarily about style rather than grammar rules.

S & W has served me well for 25 years.

[KeithHernandez]

Doesn't it mainly say make your writing as condensed as possible, or was that my other freshman comp book?

[Bobby Isosceles]

Doesn't it mainly say make your writing as condensed as possible, or was that my other freshman comp book?

It says that there are two types of people: those that feel the need to say what is implied.

[AugustWest]

Doesn't it mainly say make your writing as condensed as possible, or was that my other freshman comp book?

I'd say it says to make every word count.  To have a reason for every word you use.

That's not the same as condensing for condensing sake.

[AugustWest]

It says that there are two types of people: those that feel the need to say what is implied.

What's the other kind Bobby?

[jaydub]

Are lawyers paid by the word, AW?

[Bobby Isosceles]

Are lawyers paid by the word, AW?

No. They are generally paid by their clients.

[Ruta Bagas]

Well, of course. But I seem to recall they do attempt some grammar rules and they don't do it very well. That said, for a writer, is there any practical difference between a rule that says "Don't do this, it's bad style" and "don't do this, it's bad grammar"? "Use the active voice" is as silly a style rule as "Don't split infinitives" is a grammatical rule.

I don't want to be too down on The Elements of Style because when it expands it usually hedges its rules enough that they're reasonable (even if they couldn't identify the passive voice if they were hit over the head by it), but if you have to hedge a rule to that degree it's not really a rule, and putting it under a header that suggests it is is a very silly thing to do.

[AugustWest]

"Use the active voice" is as silly a style rule.

Why is it a silly style rule?

[dejavroom]

Well, of course. But I seem to recall they do attempt some grammar rules and they don't do it very well. That said, for a writer, is there any practical difference between a rule that says "Don't do this, it's bad style" and "don't do this, it's bad grammar"?

Well, bad style would be ugly, while bad grammar would be wrong. The two are often the same, but not always...

[Ruta Bagas]

Practically, though, as long as you understand what's being said, there's not a lot to choose between "ugly" and "wrong", given that both are really just offenses against your sensibilities.

"Use the active voice" is a silly style rule because sometimes the passive voice is better, and sometimes there's nothing to choose between them. Which is essentially to say that it's silly because it's a rule: advising someone to be aware of the difference and that the passive is often overused is good style advice.

EDIT: I wonder if anyone has any examples they'd consider "wrong" but not "ugly"? It seems to me that the response to seeing something that's "wrong" is essentially just a feeling that it's particularly ugly.

[theinevitable]

Whitney knew who that tony kicked.

who did jackie think when julie hugged?

if we have to have rules for language, I prefer rules like "C is a BC for B if and only if C is not L-marked and C dominates B."

What did the dog in the chew the bone?

To whom don't you know what book john gave?

[AugustWest]

Ruta, I think what you're arguing against is the idea that any style guide should ever exist at all.