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Author Topic: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.  (Read 18704 times)

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KeithHernandez

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2009, 09:28:57 am »

EDIT: I wonder if anyone has any examples they'd consider "wrong" but not "ugly"? It seems to me that the response to seeing something that's "wrong" is essentially just a feeling that it's particularly ugly.

Who/Whom, but that is probably not what you are talking about.  Also, pretty sure that whom has been done away with to some degree?  At least in the U.S.

Also, America/US (A).  America is two fuck*ng continents.  Though it is kind of hard to avoid Americans, I can do it in essays but not when actual speaking most of the time.  I mean, the only other thing I can think of is a variation of citizens of the United States.
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Ruta Bagas

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2009, 11:25:47 am »

I'm not arguing against any style guide existing, just any style rule. There's a very important difference. And I don't think they're worthless, I just think they're of limited use. They're a bit like Dolmio - you can eat much better if you cook something fresh yourself, but if you don't have the time or inclination to learn to cook (or you just can't get the hang of it) then you're better off using ready-made sauce than cooking yourself something awful.

Cioran

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2009, 02:19:28 am »

Everything is of limited use.

Rules cited by opponents of proper grammar instruction as ridiculous are "don't split an infinitive" and "don't end a sentence with a preposition". But these rules have not been taught for thirty or forty years. The average American high school graduate these days doesn't even know what infinitives or prepositions are, or even to what branch of knowledge they belong. That is the kind of grammar instruction I am in favor of.

As for style rules, I agree that there are few that are universally applicable. But when the writer knows his purpose and function, style guidelines can help him deliver his message with more power. Prime sources for such rules are the Economist style guide, Orwell's "Politics and the English Language", and Gowers's immortal Plain Words.

http://www.economist.com/research/styleguide/
http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
(Here's a 2009 rebuttal of Orwell. Note the vicious, mean tone of his detractor. A chihuahua nipping at a lion's heels. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=992 )
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/gowerse/complete/index.htm

But of course the best way for the ungifted to learn good English style is the same as it is in any art: the imitation of masters. (E.g. "Describe a tree in the style of Coleridge.") This of course is desperately unfashionable. Man.
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wombat

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2009, 02:50:31 am »

The average American high school graduate these days doesn't even know what infinitives or prepositions are, or even to what branch of knowledge they belong. That is the kind of grammar instruction I am in favor of.

Well put. Can we leave it at that? I love you guys, I love a messageboard where people appreciate the fine use of language, but these regularly recurring grammar threads give me horrible flashbacks.
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KeithHernandez

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2009, 06:05:55 am »

The average American high school graduate these days doesn't even know what infinitives or prepositions are, or even to what branch of knowledge they belong. That is the kind of grammar instruction I am in favor of.

Well yeah, the average American high school graduate speaks Spanish, so you would have to ask that question in Spanish.  Do you know what a 不定式 is?  How about an irrigatie zak?


infinitive, douchebag
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 06:46:27 am by KeithHernandez »
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theinevitable

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #125 on: April 30, 2009, 08:28:37 am »

Quote
Rules cited by opponents of proper grammar instruction as ridiculous are "don't split an infinitive" and "don't end a sentence with a preposition". But these rules have not been taught for thirty or forty years. The average American high school graduate these days doesn't even know what infinitives or prepositions are, or even to what branch of knowledge they belong. That is the kind of grammar instruction I am in favor of.

I was taught both of those rules. I also have people correct me on "breaking" these rules constantly.

Also, I get into arguments REGULARLY about saying "Bigger than me" instead of "bigger than I."

People get all mad when I say "actually, the preposition "than" can take either a predicate nominative or an accusative of comparison." One time I also offered to get out my latin grammar, in case they wanted to argue about any other pointless rules.
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Ruta Bagas

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #126 on: April 30, 2009, 10:13:25 am »

Everything is of limited use.

Well, obviously. The implication was 'of sufficiently limited use to be notable', or 'of relatively limited use'.

Rules cited by opponents of proper grammar instruction as ridiculous are "don't split an infinitive" and "don't end a sentence with a preposition".

No, these are rules cited as ridiculous by opponents of bullshit grammar instruction. Proper grammar instruction - of the kind you advocate below - wouldn't teach them.

But these rules have not been taught for thirty or forty years.

This simply isn't true. I've been taught them for years, and I'm still being taught them now by multiple members of my English faculty. They're so thoroughly still being taught that I sometimes even follow them because I know the supervisor I'm writing for prefers it ugly but 'right'.

The average American high school graduate these days doesn't even know what infinitives or prepositions are, or even to what branch of knowledge they belong. That is the kind of grammar instruction I am in favor of.

Me too! One of its many advantages is that technical knowledge allows you to think more concretely about the many alternatives open to you and judge which is the best. This is roughly equivalent to thinking 'should I apply that rule about the passive voice that I know isn't really a rule in this case?' only with a layer of silliness stripped out and a greater likelihood that you actually know what the passive voice is.

As for style rules, I agree that there are few that are universally applicable. But when the writer knows his purpose and function, style guidelines can help him deliver his message with more power. Prime sources for such rules are the Economist style guide, Orwell's "Politics and the English Language", and Gowers's immortal Plain Words.

Well, yes, when a writer already knows what they're doing any number of things can help them deliver their message with more power. They won't improve by following a style guide, they'll improve by reading it critically. Beaver's criticisms of Orwell are for the most part perfectly valid: if I take the first five rules of 'Politics and the English Language' at face value they will ruin my writing. That is the way it presents itself, and that is the way rules like these are almost always presented. This is exactly what his sixth rule is about: making it clear that the rest aren't rules at all.

But of course the best way for the ungifted to learn good English style is the same as it is in any art: the imitation of masters. (E.g. "Describe a tree in the style of Coleridge.") This of course is desperately unfashionable. Man.

I think that 'of course' is a bit presumptuous without any evidence, but that aside it's worth pointing out that a great many style guides (not all, by a long stretch) are roughly the equivalent of advising 'write like Coleridge, always.'

Ruta Bagas

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #127 on: April 30, 2009, 10:14:14 am »

Ooh, that looks a bit confrontational, doesn't it, with its length and its interleaved quotes? Sorry. Procrastinating.

Bobby Isosceles

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #128 on: April 30, 2009, 12:00:14 pm »

oh look what the tl;dr fairy has brought me on this fine spring day


i will say one of the interesting things about the english language is that infinitives and gerunds have taken the function of the aorist in english and this pleases me
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AugustWest

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2009, 01:29:27 pm »

I was taught both of those rules. I also have people correct me on "breaking" these rules constantly.

Also, I get into arguments REGULARLY about saying "Bigger than me" instead of "bigger than I."

People get all mad when I say "actually, the preposition "than" can take either a predicate nominative or an accusative of comparison." One time I also offered to get out my latin grammar, in case they wanted to argue about any other pointless rules.

I would submit that you are an above average American high school graduate.
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theinevitable

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #130 on: April 30, 2009, 09:51:09 pm »

Quote

I would submit that you are an above average American high school graduate.

I can't think of a way to say "yes" to this that isn't horrible.

But the reason I was taught those rules is that I went to a snobby private school.
And not all of the friends who correct me on those rules are from snobby private schools.

...they all go to one for college, though. oh well.
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Choop

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2009, 01:37:15 am »

the reason they are called style guides and not style rulebooks is that you are free to veer from their recommendation as you please so long as you are aware you are doing so

now kindly remove your panties from your asscracks
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Bobby Isosceles

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2009, 01:49:27 am »

the reason they are called style guides and not style rulebooks is that you are free to veer from their recommendation as you please so long as you are aware you are doing so

now kindly remove your panties from your asscracks

quoted for some truth, kate turabian-style
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Lister

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2009, 08:52:32 am »

Picasso once said this:

"There is no abstract art. You must always start with something. Afterward you can remove all traces of reality."

While I don't use a style guide nor have I consulted one since completing my English requirements for college, I'm glad I learned from one, because now I'm aware of when I am breaking convention and get to decide for myself whether it's justified or not.

I guess what I'm saying here is that it's better to break the rules than to be ignorant of them.  You may say the same thing, but at least one implies consideration.
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theinevitable

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Re: Another aspect of the theme of manhood.
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2009, 07:10:47 pm »

also:

horrible memories of grammar lessons in said snobby private school, where the teacher admitted that she hated and did not understand grammar, and could not answer our questions very well.
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Social pressures exist
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You're gonna do it all for the grind
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