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[fanta]

I dunno if anyone here is expert on this subject

I wishe to buy a video camera for use to upload video to youtube and for video taping of newborn baby and that sort of thing.

So I hope maybe you all can help and I will post what I learn here to help anyone in similar situation.

Maybe this is much ado about what has become a cheap device, but I am not having very much money, so my hope is to find good video camera for not a lot of money. like say $150 or less..  The lesser the betterer.

-------------

So okay here is what I have so far.  I reference newegg as a starting point reference with no claim that it is better or worser source for buying of these things:

some basic informations:

Camcorder Buying Guide
http://www.newegg.com/Product/CategoryIntelligenceArticle.aspx?articleId=196#topic1

newegg has categories:

    Camcorders
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=205&name=Camcorders

Camcorders of the Pockets
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=802&name=Pocket-Camcorders

    Point & Shoot Cameras  (many of which can do video too)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006859&IsNodeId=1&ShowDeactivatedMark=False#


So I read about image sensors on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor

So here is what I decide so far:

I will not want to buy Sony because the memory card format is proprietary

I want to avoid a camera which suffers too much from this artifact:  I hate it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter

I have concluded that choice between CCD and CMOS is not a reliable indicator of quality.  I note that my Canon EOS camera uses CMOS.

I suppose one want to avoid getting camera that suffers of 'rolling shutter' artifact is to get CCD instead of CMOS, but then again, I am sure that many CMOS setups do not suffer from rolling shutter too badly.  After all the EOS Rebel uses CMOS and I am sure it is not suffering too badly from this artifact since it is high-end camera.  I suppose even with CCD you could have rolling shutter artifact introduced not on the level of the sensor but with a slow data bus from the sensor?  I imagine that if you get something like rolling shutter on a CCD it would be on a cheap device that is intended more as a still camera and less as a video camera.

It is odd that newegg has category "Camcorders of the Pockets" and also category "Point & Shoot Cameras" since these seem to me like essentially the same thing... same size... similar application...   it is interesting to note that vast majority of the latter use CCD, whereas, ALL of the "Camcorders of the Pockets" category use CMOS.  So for sure it looks like CMOS is more used in video application and CCD more in the still picture application.  I'm not sure what that means.
I will maybe want to buy

[fanta]

one question is what format you want your video saved as. 

This format looks pretty interesting:  H.264  and it's available on the low-end Samsung model:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16830144322

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264

From the pdf of the instruction manual for the above linked Samsung model:



This camcorder records video in H.264/AVC (MPEG4 part 10/Advanced Video Coding) format compliant with the Standard resolution (SD-VIDEO) format.

The SD-quality videos (TV Super Fine, TV Fine, TV Normal) are named as "SDV_####.MP4".
The Web videos (Web Fine, Web Normal) are named as "WEB_####.MP4".

Picture compression format H.264/AVC Format

Audio compression format AAC (Advanced Audio Coding)

Per the wikipedia article, H.264 can result in video files that are 50% smaller than other common formats without loss of quality. 

That is certainly interesting...


quoting from the above linked wikipedia article:
"
Because H.264 encoding and decoding requires significant computing power, software implementation that run on a general-purpose CPU are typically slow, especially when dealing with HD  video content. To reduce CPU usage or to do real-time encoding, special-purpose hardware may be employed, either for the complete encoding or decoding process, or for acceleration assistance within a CPU-controlled environment.

A hardware H.264 encoder can be an ASIC or an FPGA. An FPGA is a general programmable chip. To use an FPGA as a hardware encoder, an H.264 encoder design is required to customize the chip for the application. A full HD H.264 encoder could run on a single low cost FPGA chip by 2009 (High profile, level 4.1, 1080p, 30fps).
"

That was obviously written before 2009.

Yes, that corroborates my experience with MP4 files.. I don't know if most MP4 files use H.264, but in any case, my experience has been that MP4 files provide amazingly sharp quality, but my somewhat dated Pentium M @ 2Ghz sometimes struggles with them, and certainly a slower computer struggles with them.


-----------------

I suppose another question is output... somehow or other you probably will want to playback your video down an HDMI cable for display on a decent monitor or TV...  Being able to link an HDMI cable directly into the camcorder might be nice I suppose... not all of them have HDMI output however...  But in any case that would only be for playback of recently recorded stuff... that brings up another question, mass storage, for which I will start a new thread....

[fanta]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTime_File_Format

"
Because both the QuickTime and MP4 container formats can use the same MPEG-4 formats, they are mostly interchangeable in a QuickTime-only environment. MP4, being an international standard, has more support. This is especially true on hardware devices, such as the Sony PSP and various DVD players; on the software side, most DirectShow / Video for Windows codec packs[7][8] include an MP4 parser, but not one for QTFF.
"

In other words, the .MOV file can contain "H.264/MPEG-4 AVC" data, just as the .MP4 file can contain such data.

[fanta]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter

here's an example of Rolling shutter... a video from a low end CMOS Mustek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07D2SPYTCNU

[Arachno-capitalist]

You'd have to pay me to read this thread. TLDR if I ever saw it

[fanta]

so then when you buy a camcorder, how do you decide which one to buy?  Do you just go for the bright shiny one with the most buttons?

[pmcd9]

No, we'll just ask you which one is best.

[greenkoolayd]

you dont know anyone who has AV experience and/or knowledge?  if i was going to buy a camcorder, id ask my multimedia teacher at school.

[fanta]

you can't just ask someone!  That's crazy!  You have no idea if your multimedia teacher is making a mistake, has some prejudice, maybe has stock in some company, anything like that. 

Dude... it's 1:30am central time.. shouldn't you kids be in bed?  Don't you have to go to work tomorrow?

I'm sorry the above mish mash is not concise but it's an adventure of parsing google results.  I was sure that EVERYONE would want to join in the fun, so I got it started with this thread.  Then I get TLDR.  I just can't grasp how anyone could TLDR this. 

It's like, this is a project to stick it to the man!!! We find the cheapest camcorder that doesn't suck!  In doing so, we reward the company that sucks the least.  All those other fuck*ng companies, trying to sell us their shiny chrome and their arrays of buttons, we're shoving them out the airlock! 

Everytime I fondle my camcorder I will fondley think of how the world is a better place because I bought the right camcorder, the best camcorder, but also the cheapest best camcorder.  I wouldn't fondle a camcorder that someone else told me to fondle.  It wouldn't be right!  It wouldn't be MY camcorder.  That would be like fondling some other person's genitalia without knowing where that genitalia may have been and what diseases it may be harboring from time spent in such unknown locales.  No, when you fondle someone's genitalia, you want to have a certain comfort level with that genitalia.  You want to get to know the person, you want to get to know if this is the kind of person who frequents whores, or fucks dead mooses without a condom or even with a condom it could still be of concern.  Are you going to TLDR that whole process?  That's what fuck*ng Al Capone did.  Oh I have symptoms of syphilis but you know what screw the idea of seeking treatment it is simply TLDR.  Do you want to end up like Al Capone?  I don't get you people!

[greenkoolayd]

you can't just ask someone!  That's crazy!  You have no idea if your multimedia teacher is making a mistake, has some prejudice, maybe has stock in some company, anything like that. 

i would ask him about qualities that are important, not which brands.  then i would take his advice and apply it to research that i did for myself.

what if you make a mistake on your own?  maybe the places you find information at on google searches are biased.

[Arachno-capitalist]

idk i just assume were rapidly approaching some kind of event horizon where cheap video technology has gone beyond what any basic consumer needs. My cell phone can record HD video and plugs in to my HDMI hole on my tv. Why do I need a totally separate device to record other video? I read this thing awhile back about a professional wedding photographer that only used iphones and it worked out just fine. The specs you are spazzing over likely have no discernible benefit over each other and you'd never know the difference.

[fanta]

your optimism is mistaken, AC. Your reasoning does not provide a reasonable level of support for your assumption.  I guess I could try to answer the question you ask, but any answer I have would probably be TL.  You've probably already got an unsubstantiated assumption or hunch to answer that question.  And you've clearly got way too much money to burn.  But of course, something could be on fire while meanwhile in your reality, you'd never know it.

[greenkoolayd]

idk i just assume were rapidly approaching some kind of event horizon where cheap video technology has gone beyond what any basic consumer needs. My cell phone can record HD video and plugs in to my HDMI hole on my tv. Why do I need a totally separate device to record other video? I read this thing awhile back about a professional wedding photographer that only used iphones and it worked out just fine. The specs you are spazzing over likely have no discernible benefit over each other and you'd never know the difference.

it costs too much money to have an iphone out here in BFE.

[Arachno-capitalist]

your optimism is mistaken, AC. Your reasoning does not provide a reasonable level of support for your assumption.  I guess I could try to answer the question you ask, but any answer I have would probably be TL.  You've probably already got an unsubstantiated assumption or hunch to answer that question.  And you've clearly got way too much money to burn.  But of course, something could be on fire while meanwhile in your reality, you'd never know it.

Hey man im not the one trying to buy specialized devices that there is no requirement for. I need a flippin cell phone, and new cell phones record video just fine. So who is the one burning money.

[fanta]

your mom is