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[jay-ell]

That's just...so weirdly, sideways racist I can't even...

Ugh, I posted a link to this on facebook and a guy I used to...uhhh...I guess we were friends with benefits? Anyway, he's being an idiot about it.

I find it disturbing that so far 4 of my female FB friends have reposted it and 2 out of 4 guys who have commented on it have been seriously critical. Though the guy who commented who is not my ex-whatever is such a dogmatic Marxist that he rejects feminism on the basis that it interferes with the class struggle, so his response is relatively consistent. My ex...well, there's a reason he hasn't been in a long term relationship in the 15 years I've known him, and it's basically because he thinks most women are crazy and the sane ones are either ugly, gay, or married.

[Nabubrush]

I know it wasn't the intention, but the first thing that sparked in my mind was irritation that some guy was saying "let me explain what's going on, ladies". I think that says more about me than it does about the article.

[pmcd9]

Ugh, I posted a link to this on facebook and a guy I used to...uhhh...I guess we were friends with benefits? Anyway, he's being an idiot about it.

TL/DR

But it does give me an excuse to post this.

[jay-ell]

Looking back, what I should have done, instead of arguing with my ex, is I should have said, "Wow, you're really overreacting to this. It's not like I insulted you personally by posting it, lighten up!"

[Nabubrush]

Looking back, what I should have done, instead of arguing with my ex, is I should have said, "Wow, you're really overreacting to this. It's not like I insulted you personally by posting it, lighten up!"

Heh heh. If that's not worthy of a cannin', I don't know what is.

[side_show]

It's an interesting article.  Having experienced the process of being made to believe what I was feeling was either unreal or invalid in my childhood, and now working through the process of unlearning it, I think there's some useful insight here. 

It's always interesting to see when people get defensive vs when they use information to find deeper insight. 

[Nabubrush]

It's interesting to me that although the genesis of this whole behavior is the classic thinking/feeling divide between the genders, men guilty of gaslighting sometimes turn it into this horrible terror-campaign shit (and no, I don't think that's overstating the case - I know several people who have gone through this). There doesn't seem to be an equivalent behavior pattern for women. I mean, I know some women are guilty of horrible domestic abuse, but I just don't see an analogue for this specific behavior.

[miles]

I know that emotional manipulation of women by men is very common and very harmful. I want to stress that because I've witnessed it and know the hurt and damage it can cause. But there are people--men and women--who are too sensitive and need to get the fuck over it. I know, because I've been that person (particularly in my early 20s) and a girlfriend or three has called me out on it. So I guess my question is, when is it manipulative and when is it just telling someone to get the fuck over himself, take a joke or two?

Also, the boss in that article, I'd be willing to bet he's like that to most of his subordinates. He's just a dick. Bosses have a unique opportunity to manipulate people and a lot of dicks end up as bosses.

[side_show]

The knowledge I can bring to the table on this is that in my work for a child protection agency I've seen a mother enact a terror campaign on her children, and in a separate case on her partner, where I've come across hundreds of men who abuse their partners or children.  When it comes to domestic violence, the stats are rock solid that men abuse women drastically more often than the other way around. Anyone debating whether gaslighting is a societal problem need only look as such stats or look back less than a hundred years and read about the history of hysteria as a common psychiatric diagnosis, which was basically the belief the women having any unsavory or inconvenient emotions was some how a medical illness.  

The thing is though, when it comes to JL's ex-whatever, what I see is someone who is choosing to remain ignorant.  It's not as though the solid facts aren't there.  It's that it is far more comfortable for him to live in denial and not be accountable.  We're all responsible to looking at our own shit, and the shit past generations have foisted upon us and to examine the good and bad and learn from both.  Otherwise, being stuck is a terrible place to be.  

RE: miles - being "too sensitive"  I honestly believe every person has a right to have their feelings and to express them.  If you're talking about being excessively saddened or angered by certain things, then the emotional responses are valid, but could point to it being useful to exploring the causes of underlying depression, anxiety, anger, etc.   

[Nabubrush]

I would say that if someone is being "too sensitive" the person who is sitting in judgement should ask themselves who benefits from that supposed shortcoming being pointed out. If your partner is "too sensitive", it's probably better to move on than to enact some sort of campaign to either get them to change or to convince them that they are crazy or what-have-you.

[Doc]

Nabu and SS, to play Devil's advocate for a moment (and the rest of my life) would you be giving the same advice if we were talking about someone who had genuine feelings of anger with reactions that were out of proportion and led to problems in their relationships with those around them?

Surely there's some scope to say, 'this is an inappropriate or unhelpful response (which can still come from completely genuine emotions) we should think about whether there's a better way to deal with it'.

[jay-ell]

Doc, let me address that.

Pedro has, at times, struggled with anger. When under a lot of stress, he has seriously overreacted to small problems with disproportionate responses which, disturbingly, he has no memory of after the moment has passed. It's only happened 3 or 4 times in the 17 years I've known him, but all within the span of about 6 months. The first few times, I -- person of pretty solid faith in my own abilities and reason -- blamed myself for failing him so drastically and bringing this wrathful demon out of such an otherwise gentle man. In retrospect, I now realize that this is exactly how domestic violence starts. He was never physically violent with me or the kids, but I can completely see how so many women internalize their partners' anger and blame themselves for provoking it.

The moment he lashed out at my son instead of me, I told him he'd better get his ass into therapy, because if it ever happened again he would come home from work the next day to find all his shit on the front lawn. He did, and there have been no further incidents. That was about 2 years ago.

[side_show]

Working with people who have anger issues, what I say is that all people have a right to their emotions, but that it is each person's personal responsibility to learn how to express them in appropriate and healthy ways.  A lot of people are taught that some or all emotions are inappropriate or that what they feel isn't valid.  This leads to holding so much in and comes out as damage to self or others. 

[Nabubrush]

Yeah, for me you just can't say that the other person's feelings aren't valid, if that's what they are feeling. You can suggest therapy, but if they get that reaction from whatever is going on and you aren't ok with it, and they think it's appropriate, your only option is to leave. But gaslighting - well, I don't think gaslighters ever wind up with "get therapy", y'know? They end up with "you are crazy". They end up with "no normal person would react that way" - which is incredibly insulting and demeaning.

[theinevitable]

it is funny that I didn't understand really what you guys were talking about, and then had a huge fight about this last night. Arguing about whether getting defensive and yelling is as legitimate of an emotional response as collapsing into bed and sobbing so hard you can't talk. At some point we started tickling and never really finished the discussion.