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[wombat]

Can there be an agreement then on whether he should just go through the motions?

Well, as should be clear from my last post, I can't even agree with myself on the answer to this, so I doubt it.

Looking at it from the outside instead, though, I am pretty sure that if he decided to just churn it out, we would complain bitterly about what hack work he was producing.

[side_show]

On the other side of things, as a professional playwright who has come close to reaching the highest success possible for my country of origin and genre, I don't feel at all what you feel about it Wombat.  My measure of success never had anything to do with audience numbers, but to do with and internal measure of whether I felt I was successfully expressing something in the manner that felt true to me.  People are shocked when they realize I didn't run home after my last production and instantly start churning out the next script, because for certain, the measure of success where I live, to most people, is if they fly you to the theatre capitol of the country and put your show on with a big budget.  I am as successful as it gets for a female, aboriginal playwright from Winnipeg.  And I came home and walked away and took on a totally different career path unrelated to the arts.  Why?  The easy answer is that I like sleeping in my own bed and being in the city where all the people I love are.  The deeper truth is that I was emptied out by that production.  My bough was most certainly dry.  And it stayed that way for three years.

Now, about three weeks after I sent that same damn script off to the publisher finally, really letting it go, what did I do?  On Friday, I proposed a massive, brand new writing project that I came up with (super inspired, super excited) out of thin air based on a call for proposals.  Where the fuck did that come from?  I have no idea.  

But here's the thing:  I don't have to write the same characters again.  I would rather gouge my eyes out than write the same characters, the same story again.  I spent seven years writing and re-writing that play, workshopping it, re-writing it, hearing different actors play the characters.  I don't mind hearing it be re-performed because the actors and directors and composers and choreographers make it new.  But my own words?  Me sitting at my desk tinkering with that creation?  Barf.  No thank you.

What I wish for Onstad is that he finds something new, if it's with these characters or with another creation entirely.  Something that breathes life and passion into his work.  I'm sorry, but there is no passion in tinkering.  The little dribbles we're getting?  As a reader, I'm glad to have them, but as an artist, I know what real creative drive looks like, and this ain't it.

[wombat]

My measure of success never had anything to do with audience numbers, but to do with and internal measure of whether I felt I was successfully expressing something in the manner that felt true to me.  

Really? Would it really be enough to successfully express it but never have anyone else hear it?

As for him finding something else, apparently he's already found it in his food writing. And, speaking again as someone who threw away a career that other people would have killed for, who am I to throw stones if I never get my comics again?

[Arachno-capitalist]

I encourage as many bright young people to focus on 'internal satisfaction' as much as possible. Leaves more 'external satisfaction' for me. As for Onstad, he left the store, literally. I look forward to his next creative endeavor even if it doesn't involve Ray and the otter, but don't pretend Achewood is still a thing and run away with our book money.

[side_show]

Really? Would it really be enough to successfully express it but never have anyone else hear it?

That's a tough question.  You're likely thinking about a novel writer's process, which is quite different.  The entire theatrical process is about creating a little community and interacting with other people.  I do intense interviewing as part of my initial research, then the development with a dramaturge, re-writes, then table readings with actors, a director, etc.  Rewrites.  Next comes staged readings, usually with post-reading interactions with the audience which is usually a mix of theatre professionals and the general public.  More re-writes.  The last stage is a full production (rehearsal, more re-writes, staging).  After that comes more re-writes for future productions or if you're super lucky, publication.  When it comes to my earlier scripts, I've self produced a lot and I'm fine with that being all that comes of it. Just enough to break even and nothing more.  I've also written first drafts of things that haven't gone beyond the work with a dramaturge phase because I didn't like how the scripts turned out or otherwise lost interest.  I'm fine with either result, but if I want something to have an audience I can guarantee to make that happen.  I guess the question would be, what if no one came?  Well, that never happens - all the people involved bring along people who they want to share their performance/choreography/design work with, some of the people I interview in the initial stage typically come because they want to see how what they shared with me gets turned into a performance, other people come because they've like what myself, the actors or the director, choreographer, etc. have done in the past.    

[littlefallsmets]

Yeah, when I write a... silly parody song or a funny/angry poem, something short form, my expectation load is totally different than with a long form work.

You know. All the long form work I haven't been able to finish or accomplish much on for years. haha.

A comedy piece or a poem, I just have something to get out of me, write it in a day and... if I get to scream it at thirty people and get even polite applause, I'm okay. It is good.

I did my work and it did its work and it is good.

Long form... it's so different. All that time invested, you get to grow EXPECTATIONS, maybe the worst thing of all.

[KeithHernandez]

I wish he would have just ended for good after the great outdoor fight.  I am a burn out over rust guy though, basically all of the time.  He is the reason why I am like I am, but I kinda wish Dylan would have died in his motorcycle crash.  I would not feel this way if he just completely went away, but, yeah, instead he spent 50 years trying to ruin his first 6 (he didn't succeed).  It never affects my enjoyment of their good work, but god I wish people would just go away.  Modest c*ck after The Moon and Antarctica.  Flaming Lips after Soft Bulletin.  Radiohead after Hail to the Thief.  Etc., etc. 

I was driving in my car with a girl 5 years younger than me (and thus, when she was 16 they were releasing, IDK, that record with Ship in the title.  When I was 14-17 they released the moon and antarctica.) who was all, this is Modest c*ck?  This is actually good, that's weird.  I had to explain how they actually used to be good and that she should listen to their first three records.  I guess that is the danger in doing stuff like this.  So yeah, there is no way I would recommend Achewood to people now, though I once did like mad.  If it was someone who I believe would actually start at the beginning is the only way I would, I guess. 

Only exception to it not affecting my enjoyment of their actual good output?  The Flaming Lips.  I just hate Wayne Coyne so fuck*ng much at this point that I don't know that I can ever listen to his shit again.  I consider everything they released from their beginning to The Soft Bulletin to be classics, yet it has been a while and there will be a little something there that makes me not quite like it as much probably.  Shame, cause they were probably my favorite band for like the last 7 years.  That guy is just such a douche.  Ronald is still cool though.

[Doc]

I listened to an interview with Penn Jilette recently where he put forward the idea that I've heard previously, that the best performers are sociopaths, inasmuch they genuinely don't care whether you like them or not and that is what enables them to be successful. That would kind of explain how someone could walk away so easily.

But now that I've written it down I guess he's actually not walked away an also he gets way worked up over what people think of him. So maybe this is a terrible comparison. 

[littlefallsmets]

I... think that later Modest penis is still quite listenable.

Not as good as their early stuff but fun.

I dunno. I got odd tastes.

[jaydub]

So yeah, there is no way I would recommend Achewood to people now, though I once did like mad.  If it was someone who I believe would actually start at the beginning is the only way I would, I guess. 

This.  I think the "would I recommend this to someone" point crystallizes whether you think an artist is doing good work.  Or a company for that matter.  I think I remember hearing one of our business development wonks going on about a Net Promoter Score which is based on the same idea.  If a person is willing to associate their reputation by associating themselves in this way with your work, then you're on the right track.

[pmcd9]

My like of things starts where Keith's leaves off, apparently.

[KeithHernandez]

But we can agree on Wayne Coyne being a douche right?

Here are my arguments:

1- That thing with Erika Badu, plus, mainly, how her open letter to him totally summed up my opinions in a first hand way (he doesn't care about actually doing anything or saying anything in a provocative way to make a point, he kinda just wants people to look at him.  This is my main beef.)

2- When I saw them in like 2006-7 it was the worst show of my life and the only bad experience I have had on ecstacy.  He wouldn't play the fuck*ng songs, instead he just kept telling us how great we were and how he loved us.  That is all well and good, but I paid him money and took drugs under the impression I was going to a concert.  It was also at the OKC Zoo and they didn't fuck*ng play Christmas at the Zoo or This Here Giraffe.

3- This year I made my yearly trip back to Oklahoma a little after New Years.  Apparently, he had just caused stirs in the hipster community there by taking lsd with yoko ono at midnight on new years and then telling people about it and inviting people there??  I don't know, that just seems really off putting to me.  I love drugs, particularly that one, and I love bands that use that drug in a non-blatant way, particularly his in the 90s.  However, I like it when you use those drugs to make trippier, wider ranging music.  Not when you use those drugs to somehow make people think you are cool or something?  I don't know, being too open in a kinda commercial/slimy attention-y way with drugs is shitty to me, cause I care about drugs, especially that one and reefer.  They can make the world a better place, so best not to use that for attention.  Hopefully he had a mildly bad trip because of that. 

[theinevitable]

Yeah, I kind of get the sense that Wayne Coyne, at some point, decided that he is a big deal, and their music has suffered ever since. I like Yoshimi. But that movie they made? Yikes.

That movie felt like when the weird guy corners you at a party to tell you about his weird conspiracy/philosophy theories, and gets all in your face about how just because he didn't go to college doesn't mean he isn't smart.

[wombat]

I listened to an interview with Penn Jilette recently where he put forward the idea that I've heard previously, that the best performers are sociopaths, inasmuch they genuinely don't care whether you like them or not and that is what enables them to be successful. That would kind of explain how someone could walk away so easily.

But now that I've written it down I guess he's actually not walked away an also he gets way worked up over what people think of him. So maybe this is a terrible comparison. 

Penn has an interesting comment on audience numbers in one of his books. He talks about seeing an act in Atlantic City or somewhere, watching some old guys in some crappy venue who've obviously come way down in the world, and he looks at Teller and says "Someday that will be us" and they grin at each other and are totally thrilled.

PS. I would look this up and quote it exactly but the Kindle's battery is dead. But before someone goes off on some Luddite rant about this, on the other hand if it were a physical book I'd probably have no idea where to find it in all the disorganized bookshelves in the house.

[Llewelyn Ash]

I think the guy at a party analogy is the best way to make sense of things; Onstad was the guy who was maybe a bit uncomfortable being there but when you engaged with him he was really interesting and funny, but for a while he's just been nodding, sending texts and pretending he's still in the conversation but should have just excused himself properly and now you'll always think he's an ass.

I saw the olympic torch a couple of weeks ago, but it wasn't carried by Philippe.