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Do you get migraines?

Yes, they are a bitch
- 5 (29.4%)
Nope
- 9 (52.9%)
What's a migraine?
- 0 (0%)
I vote for Cowboyneal
- 3 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: May 12, 2004, 12:49:49 am


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Author Topic: 3 shots in the ass = goodbye, migraine  (Read 16333 times)

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jay-ell

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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2004, 02:25:13 pm »

Yeah, the doctor who finally had the balls to diagnose me with something is an older guy with a New York accent.  Probably not a coincidence that he'd take a more agressive approach.  The whole medical system us screwed up, though -- nobody's happy with it, not doctors, not patients.  The only people being adequately served are insurance companies.  

Gaah.  Don't get me started.  I will seriously rant.  And health care is a topic on which I am educated.
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CortJstr

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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2004, 04:28:24 pm »

Fun fact I learned at work: It costs more to perform a mammogram than insurance/medicare will pay for. Thus places either have to close or make up the cost in other areas like MRI or PET.

Also, you don't have to remove your nipple ring when having a mammogram done.
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AlohaDawg

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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2004, 08:05:48 pm »

Quote from: "jldunston"
Yeah, the doctor who finally had the balls to diagnose me with something is an older guy with a New York accent.  Probably not a coincidence that he'd take a more agressive approach.  The whole medical system us screwed up, though -- nobody's happy with it, not doctors, not patients.  The only people being adequately served are insurance companies.  

Gaah.  Don't get me started.  I will seriously rant.  And health care is a topic on which I am educated.


It's not just the insurance companies. And socialized medicine has not been the answer anywhere it has been tried. A well-educated, vocal population of educated health care consumers can do more to fix this problem than any tinkering with the system can. People need to understand their options, be able to objectively get the information they need to make an informed health care decision for themselves, and most importantly be able to switch physicians, hospitals and health care plans easily and without penalty if they want or need to.

Fair competition for health care being consumed by people who either have advocates or who can and will make their decisions based on education, knowledge and a fair set of options will force doctors and health care systems from being bullies, setting unfair rates, or restricting interventions to people based on their economics.

Torte reform is also a big piece of this puzzle. A combination of legislative and market-oriented remedies can fix this problem.
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jay-ell

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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2004, 09:03:21 pm »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
And socialized medicine has not been the answer anywhere it has been tried.


"Socialized" medicine has not actually been tried anywhere.  That term is a politically loaded epithetical misnomer.  Canada, Germany, England, and other countries with a single-payer system, however, do have lower infant mortality rates, higher life expectancies, and better public health service, and  not only does each individual pay less for services recieved, but these government pays less than half as much for the whole system than we, as Americans, pay as a group out of our own pockets for health insurance alone each year.  Ten thousand Americans die each year of preventable causes because they have insufficient or nonexistant health insurance-- this, the self-proclaimed most economically developed nation in the world.  And nobody will do anything about it, because any positive steps that might be taken are labeled "socialized medicine," and Americans, as a group, will not accept them.  

Breathe.  Breathe.  

</mini-rant>

I told you not to get me started.
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AugustWest

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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2004, 09:10:20 pm »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"

Torte reform is also a big piece of this puzzle. A combination of legislative and market-oriented remedies can fix this problem.


Yep, the way to improve the quality of healthcare is to allow healthcare providers to be negligent with impunity.  Tort reform = insurance industry gouging.
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AlohaDawg

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« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2004, 09:52:12 pm »

Yes, except that I baited you.

The problem with US healthcare is not solvable by a single payer system, because it would not be accepted by Americans, nor do most Americans want government providing all of these services.

The lowest infant mortality rate of a nation of any size is Sweden at 3.49; ours is at 6.8 and there are probably 20 nations in between, including the UK, Denmark, Canada and Spain. It is difficult to take into account population variations, availability/acceptability of birth control, and migration, particularly "unofficial" migration.

Americans dying of preventable causes is a function of late detection and lack of awareness of risk more than it is an indictment of the health care system.  Look particularly to the urban black communities of the US and prostate cancer for an example of this. Health educators promote screening, get out there and stump as hard as we can but people refuse to take responsibility, even to take a simple blood test. I had problems getting people with obvious, disgusting symptoms to come get treated for STDs. For Free.

Giving people MORE opportunity to put the responsibility for their health care on the government is not the answer. We need innovation, we need competition and we need support for Public Health Initiatives from the media, business, and communities. This is how to address preventable causes in the health care arena; at the end, though, personal responsibility is required.

We pay people hundreds of dollars to take their TB medication, in addition to maintaining many full time employees to drive around and watch them take the meds. However, we don't do this just for them - it's for you and others to NOT get infected by the clown with TB who won't care for himself. If it were not infectious we'll give him his options and if he doesn't take them and later dies, whose failure is that?
Should the government take care of a smoker with lung cancer? Pay for a desired but not medically indicated abortion? Repair a non-medically hazardous cosmetic condition? Who are you going to take care of and who are you not going to take care of? And whose money are you going to spend doing it?

The responsibility for this can not fall solely on government. Germany's government is approaching financial ruin (last month in Der Spiegel, an article entitled "Germany: a Joke?") under the weight of their entitlement social programs and other European countries are staggering as well. Look at the taxation rates in some of the nations you mention and then look at wha the average citizen is getting for health care there. It's no wonder that when people from all over the world want top of the line health care, they come to the US.

The problem in the US health care system is unnecessary procedures, litigation, and lack of choice/portability of health care. Level the playing field and educate the consumers - the quality will have to improve and the costs will have to come down as these organizations compete.
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arkabee

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« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2004, 10:09:30 pm »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
the quality will have to improve and the costs will have to come down as these organizations compete.


ya, it will just _have_ to, won't it?

i mean, wouldn't it be just a complete kick in the ass for the Insurance Companies and Pharm-o-Co's to end up ruling the world?

innocent[1] question:
why _are_ drugs so much cheaper in Canada?

[1] as in, i'm not baiting anyone, i have no idea what the answer is, am actually interested in hearing an answer.
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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2004, 10:22:36 pm »

Quote from: "arkabee"

innocent[1] question:
why _are_ drugs so much cheaper in Canada?


Only a tiny bit of the information that was brought up in the program, but there are numerous other sources for the same info: Mark Thomas did a show on this.
I don't know how well he is known over the pond, but check him out. Great guy and he has done a lot of worthwhile shows.

And a source that answers your question directly - here and here.
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AlohaDawg

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« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2004, 10:29:37 pm »

A Captialist nation is unlikely to stand for governmental price controls this obvious.

The State of Hawaii is in a consortium with a bunch of other states and we get our drugs cheaper through a negotiated price. Remember also that every drug and procedure out there is on a medicaid price list and that is what government pays - it's less than a consumer price and less than a HMO/3rd party negotiated price. There are multiple price tiers, and some are in fact driven to some degree by market forces.

The fact that there are price differences based on these factors within the US alone is evidentiary that honest competition will bring the prices down.

Remember, though that less profit for the drug companies can mean less R and D. That means less new drugs, and less frequently.
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jay-ell

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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2004, 11:20:16 pm »

I only wish I had more time.  This is going to be half-assed, and for that I apologize.  

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
The problem with US healthcare is not solvable by a single payer system, because it would not be accepted by Americans, nor do most Americans want government providing all of these services.


Agreed.  And that, IMHO, is part of the problem.  Americans are shooting themselves in the foot with their close-mindedness in this respect.  

Quote

The lowest infant mortality rate of a nation of any size is Sweden at 3.49; ours is at 6.8 and there are probably 20 nations in between...


Thirty-three, actually.  Granted, that includes all nations...but if we count only developed nations, we still rank 28th (In spite of recent improvements, according to HRSA).  

Quote
...It is difficult to take into account population variations, availability/acceptability of birth control, and migration, particularly "unofficial" migration.


That's true, but those factors would affect most developed nations roughly equally.  Besides, should not the measure of quality health care be its success in meeting the needs of the community, rather than the relative ease with which it does so?

Quote
Americans dying of preventable causes is a function of late detection and lack of awareness of risk more than it is an indictment of the health care system.  


This is true, but the 10,000 Americans to which I refer are cases that can specifically be linked to inadequate insurance.  These are individuals who, because they could not afford treatment, did not seek medical care (resulting in delayed diagnoses) delayed or discontinued care they knew they needed, or were unable to access medications that would have saved their lives for financial reasons.  Should this number seem high, let me point out that one million Americans die annually from preventable causes.  One percent of all preventable deaths doesn't seem like much -- until it affects someone you know.  

Quote
Should the government take care of a smoker with lung cancer? Pay for a desired but not medically indicated abortion? Repair a non-medically hazardous cosmetic condition? Who are you going to take care of and who are you not going to take care of?


Who do private insurers take care of?  Not my friend's husband, who had cancer ten years ago.  He's self-employed, and no insurance company will take him on -- no matter how much he pays.  Private insurers also won't take care of my three year old nephew, who's autistic -- mental health patients are one of the most needy and most underserved groups in America.  Private insurers won't pay for my mother's post-hysterectomy hormone supplements (which may prevent breast cancer and osteoperosis), and they won't pay for Vioxx for my brother, who is crippled by Crohn's-related arthritis at the age of 34.  They won't pay for one of the two medications recently prescribed for me so that an otherwise healthy twenty five year old woman can have a baby.  So before you tell me who we shouldn't be covering, let me tell you who we should.  

Quote
The responsibility for this can not fall solely on government...


Why can't it?  That's an argument that I'm sick of hearing.  In this country, we have something historians and political scientists used to call Civic Responsibility.  It's why we have highways and a federally-supported military.  It's why the police aren't hired guns, and why many remote rural communities have affordable electrical service.  It's why we have public schools.  Public schools are perhaps the best example of why health care should be everyone's responsibility.  Sure, not everybody's happy with the public schools.  But internationally, we rank second (just behind Finland) in child literacy rates.  That's a far cry from being twenty-eighth or thirty-fifth (depending how you count) in health care.  And regardless of anyone's criticism of public schools nationwide, the important thing is that every person in America -- even the children of illegal immigrants -- has access to the school system and all the services it provides.  

Quote
Look at the taxation rates in some of the nations you mention and then look at wha the average citizen is getting for health care there.


Okay.  Let's look.  

Aggregate healthcare spending (as a function of the GDP) averages about $4,887 per capita in the United States.  Switzerland -- the second highest spender -- spends $3,248 per capita, Germany around $2,800, and the U.K., about $2,000 in 2001.  

But we wouldn't want that "inferior" care that people in other nations are content to settle for, would we?  

Let's look again.  Switzerland is ranked #20 by the WHO; Germany is ranked #25.  The UK, the closest system we have to "socialized" medicine, is ranked #18.  The United States is ranked #37.  

If the German government is in dire straits, it's not because of their healthcare expenditures, I can assure you of that.  

Ref. 1    Ref. 2    Ref. 3

Quote
It's no wonder that when people from all over the world want top of the line health care, they come to the US.


That's not technically true.  When wealthy people from all over the world want top of the line health care, and they are willing and able to pay for it, the come to the US.  Meanwhile, thousands of people who live right here can't get access to the treatments they need because they are too expensive.  For support, I refer you to the book Health Care Meltdown by the late Dr. Robert Lebow.  I can't quote it here, but he devotes several chapters to the problem of accessibility in the American system.  In essence, we have the technology, but most people can't afford to use it.  


Quote
The problem in the US health care system is unnecessary procedures, litigation, and lack of choice/portability of health care. Level the playing field and educate the consumers - the quality will have to improve and the costs will have to come down as these organizations compete.


In my opinion -- and the opinions of many who are far, far wiser than I -- establishing a single-payor system is the optimal way of "leveling the playing field."  Competition works in so far as demand remains elastic, but in the case of health care, it's just not.  People have to have health care, and those who are able to pay exorbitant prices will continue to do so for as long as they are able.  But health care isn't like any other commodity.  It is a civil service, like public education.  It is, I would argue, a basic human right.  It's a right that's being denied to tens of thousands of Americans each year -- and ten thousand of them are dying for lack of it.  Many people have suggested ways to modify the current system, ways to regulate it, and ways to improve what we have, but, call me a revolutionary, I believe the best thing we can do is dismantle it.  Take the whole thing apart and start over.  Otherwise, we're going to end up with a system that's so complicated, it will take a four-year degree just to figure out how to get a prescription.  

And that's my opinion.  Am I cute when I'm politically inflamed?
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jay-ell

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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2004, 11:22:51 pm »

Quote from: "AlohaDawg"
Remember, though that less profit for the drug companies can mean less R and D. That means less new drugs, and less frequently.


One more thing...we should all know that much of a drug companies' "R&D" expenses are paid for through government research grants.  Don't buy that "It costs $1000 to bring a new drug to market" bull crap.  That money isn't coming out of GlaxoSmithKline's bottom line.  It's coming out of taxpayers' pockets.

Edit: And it's fewer new drugs.  Not less.  

Nothin' but love, AD.  You've just hit on my #1 Cause For Which I Am Willing To Fight.  Also, my #1 Grammar-Nazi Inducing Language Peeve.  Lucky you.  ;)
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AlohaDawg

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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2004, 02:36:28 am »

Not to write an agonizingly long post, but:

As a Proud, Capitalist Republican I can tell you that the last thing this country needs is to become a giant teat with the government training every successive generation to suckle...that was Johnson's "war on poverty". Creating entitlements is a failed idea.

The immigration argument you make is interesting but flawed when you take into account the type of immigrants and also the controls european countries have over immigration; very few countries have nearly the open borders we have and in fact in Europe it is a lot harder to immigrate, get work, and find a place to live if you are an illegal immigrant. Certainly not the case here.

Your family's experiences with particularly bad health problems is probably not a baseline for most families.  It's lamentable but it's pretty close to what I might consider the worst case scenario, unless my family and circle of friends are just startlingly healthy. Truly it's almost unfair to present that in an argument because for me to say much on counterpoint makes me sound like a dick who hates your family. Not the case.

In terms of Infant Mortality: the US has better technology and better medicine than any other country on Earth. That means people who would be infertile or incapable of carrying a baby to term in any other place do so here, and there are so many more high-risk pregnancies and low-prognosis births here as a result. You just can't compare those numbers in a vacuum; it's not fair to the health professionals who work really hard to help childless people have children, and give very sick babies the best chance at life. These are parents who would have no chance to be parents in many other places, and babies who survive against impossible odds - we can't just let these fall into the other column of the statistics in this discussion. In some ways, the quality of our health care drives that statistic. Also Dr Gerberding just today announced the restructuring of CDC to address some specific health outcomes across the range of life. It will be interesting to see what the "Nation's Health Department" looks like in a few years.

Lowering everyone's quality of care will never be the right approach to solving health disparities. I endorse a safety net for the people who need it the most but I don't want my ability to choose my healthcare taken away. I don't want to be placed on waiting lists for elective procedures. I don't want the best procedures rationed out on a triage basis. I don't want to have to wait for health care and I don't want to pay taxes that go to treat other people's bad behaviors.

The drug companies are forced to balance profit against progress against disease and bad health outcomes. They compete against each other for both the research grant money and for consumer dollars. This type of competition is inherently good in a publicly held company; it forces the companies to be both innovative, responsible for grant money, and profitable all at the same time. And it keeps people employed with excellent prospects, something that government employment doesn't really offer.

This is the worst part of the idea the government should perform this service: relegating us all to clinics that look and feel like the Department of Motor Vehicles, being treated by a doctor whose income is the same regardless of the quality of care he puts out, and unsuable because he represents the government.

Count me out.
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jough

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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2004, 03:38:41 am »

Yeah, count me out on socialised health care.

I mean, have you SEEN the things the government runs?

The post office.  That's really all I need to say.

AugustWest

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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2004, 03:54:54 am »

Yeah, an organization that can get a document from one end of the country to the other in less than a week, all for the princely sum of 37 cents.  And they do it millions of times a day.  What a bunch of fuckups.

Seriously, you shouldn't say this kind of stuff too loud.  You don't want your mailman to get disgruntled do you?
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jay-ell

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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2004, 04:06:09 am »

I really want to respond, AD, but I can't now -- I don't have time to do the neccessary research.  I'll just say one thing, and then go to bed.  

My family's experience is thrown out there to point out that we're not the poor and underpriveledged in this country.  We're a regular, upper-middle class family with what is generally considered to be good health insurance.  All of us have policies that are provided or supplemented by our employers, and all of us (except me) have stable, highly-paid, professional jobs.  And if we're struggling, how much harder must it be for people who don't have jobs with salaries and benefits?  Disease doesn't care how much you make.  

Tomorrow, when I have time, I'm going to find you some numbers on infant mortality as compared to fertility rates.  I think you'll be surprised.  

[EDIT: CONTENT DELETED

Choop's right.  I got *too* personal.  (See subsequent post).  Sorry.  I'm still dealing with some "issues," and I shouldn't vent that here.  Apologies all around.  

This is why I gave up K5.  I get too uptight about this kind of stuff.  

Even admins make mistakes.]
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