The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: side_show on June 01, 2007, 07:46:29 pm
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After 8 years Kevorkian is free. I know folks really hate this dude, but to me it's just horrifying that he went to jail in the first place, nevermind such a harsh sentence.
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I dunno. Something about a doctor who helps people die seems awful backwards. Seems like the opposite of what a doctor should do? Intellectually I support it, I guess... I don't know.
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I am glad that Kevorkian is free, and hope for the day when the things that he did to serve his patients are no longer considered criminal, but dignified. If our pets are sick and suffering, and there's nothing we can do, we put them down to stop their pain. But we don't give ourselves that option, and that always seemed weird to me. If I had a few months to live, and it was going to be full of pain and suffering, and some jackass came to me and said, "That's not allowed! I DEMAND you sit there and waste away, because that's how *I* feel it should be!," I'd probably kill him. Then I'm a murderer, and the gubmint can do the honors.
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I am glad that Dr. K is free.
We had a really horrible situation here that hit very close to home for me. A much loved person here was suffering greatly from a terminal illness at a very advanced age. He was given medical treatment way beyond what he wanted. He was suffering so much and he felt that medical intervention had cheated him of a peaceful death. When he finally got home from Anchorage, he committed suicide with a gun. However, he was agile enough to get it and commit the act by himself.
It horrifies me to think of people suffering from terminal illness and wishing that they could end their lives, but are physically unable to do so. I think that Kevorkian did the right thing.
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Yeah, my grandfather shot himself due to similar circumstances. Personally, I wish he'd had a more dignified option. It would have been such an act of kindess for him to have had a better option, both for him and for us.
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Yeah, my grandfather shot himself due to similar circumstances. Personally, I wish he'd had a more dignified option. It would have been such an act of kindess for him to have had a better option, both for him and for us.
Mel, that's exactly what I was trying to say about the situation up here.
I wish that he had been able to do it differently. I have no idea how he envisioned it going down, but maybe peacefully falling asleep in his wife's arms might have been a better option than locking her out of the house and getting his sidearm. I have no idea - maybe he wanted it that way? But having the option, that was what I was driving at. He should have had the option.
Then again, he was really pissed off at the medical community for intervening and cheating him of his natural death. So maybe he figured that this was the last way he could take control. The point is, I have no idea. I've never been in that situation. Maybe someday I will be, though, and I want the option. That's why I support Kevorkian.
Gah, I'm getting all choked up thinking about it. I loved them so much because they are incredible people. His wife is still here. She seems like she's managing okay, but I just inwardly grieve for her and I hope she's all right.
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Glad to have him back.
I wonder what he's going to do for a living now. Guess some pro-euthenasia group will support him, and he probably has book deals.
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Glad to have him back.
I wonder what he's going to do for a living now. Guess some pro-euthenasia group will support him, and he probably has book deals.
Yea, his agent says he's going to be doing various speaking appearances and such as well, not all about assisted suicide. And getting back to his woodworking and sailing or whatever it was...
I agree basically with everything people have said, Linnea, Smells and Golfhaus in particular. It amazes me that people can have sex change operations, or have a limb they don't like lopped off (after lots of psychotherapy and judging it's the best option), but dying with dignity is just too much.
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have a limb they don't like lopped off (after lots of psychotherapy and judging it's the best option)
We had a really frustrating issue with our psych professor where... he just didn't even understand our questions. He was saying that these people are not "mentally ill" once they have the limb removed because... now they are happy. And don't have any Subjective Mental Distress. We were trying to ask "does it not count as a mental disease/disorder if it is incredibly maladaptive? is that not part of the criteria?" and he was just being his usual not-getting-it self. "no, see, they're happy now! So... it's not a mental illness!" Personally, I guess more power to them. If they want to lop off their limmes, and that makes them happy... that's fine. but weird. I mean... I guess this is a recent change... up until the 70's the DSM-IV still considered Homosexuality a mental disorder. So.
I had an issue with that class. That man never understood any of the really interesting and clever questions this really cute girl asked. I was always about to ask the same question.
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He was saying that these people are not "mentally ill" once they have the limb removed because... now they are happy. And don't have any Subjective Mental Distress.
So - does the need to lop off another limb resurface after a while with those folks? The next time their job gets crappy, or their kid starts listening to bad music and getting poor grades, or whatever anxiety it is they're mischanneling?
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my understanding is that it is always in regards to a certain limb. In some cases, they had always believed that their arm/leg/whatever didn't belong there-- they suffered a huge amount of upset that this "thing" was on them.
This strikes me as some sort of weird nervous system disorder that we just haven't figured out yet. But that's just me talking out of my ass, you know.
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One bit of trivia tangentially related to Kervorkian that I always found interesting is that his . . . odd . . . attorney, Geoffrey Fieger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Feiger), is Doug Fieger's (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:ny5a8qptbt94) brother.
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People can have their limbs removed? Doctors will do this?
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I believe they can do it in Scotland.
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Whoa, Whoa, so when you where saying limb you weren't talking about sex changes, you were talking about arms?
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yes. arms and legs. some people, for some reason, think that their arm or leg should not be there.
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Back in the nineties I was pretty heavily into tattoos and piercings and I had this fascination with BME, or body modification ezine. There is some pretty scary and hardcore stuff in there. I haven't been there in a long time but they had some stuff about people who had amputation fetishes and had "accidents" to get limbs removed.
I only had about 10 body piercings and one tattoo, so it's not like i'm a Suicidegirl or anything. Basically I don't recommend them*.
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* Way off topic: All my piercings are out because I developed a pretty bad allergy to metal as a result of all the piercings. It is so bad that I can't even wear gold, titanium, or niobium, much less silver, so I'm not sure if it's a nickel allergy or if I just have insanely sensitive skin or if it's all metal alloys. I'm kind of worried that I won't be able to wear a wedding band when I get married, which would be sad. I have to sew patches inside my jeans to cover up the rivets or else I get really bad contact dermatitis, and then the rest of my skin gets sympathy hives. I have to get bras with plastic components instead of metal (like the little slidey things that adjust the straps). I have to wear a watch when I'm on call so that I can get patient vital signs, so I had to get one with an all-velcro strap that covers up the metal back of the watch. I have to have plastic glasses so that the metal doesn't touch my skin. Etc...
However, I have a couple bracelets that are glass beads on stretch cord that I can wear even though they have some little metal charms that dangle off them. I wear them until I start to get The Rash and then I have to lay off for a few days.
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I read an article that was, in something, by a woman who had managed to lose one leg. She had filled the back seat-well of her car with dry ice and stuck her leg in it for a couple of hours, which failed so she had to retry once she had gotten better after the first. All because she was told having it done surgically wasn't an option.
I mean, at the point when someone's going to harm themselves something needs doing regardless, it's insane.
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I'm pretty sure I've heard of the amputation thing happening in more places than scotland. It's just a matter of finding a surgeon who is wiling to do it which I guess means convincing them that it is what is best for you. Obviously it's elective surgery too which I guess would make it more expensive.
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stuff about how clothing causes her problems
Move in with me and the wife, and you can pretty much go naked. That's what she does most of the time.
Should that have been a PM?
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Should that have been a PM?
I for one am glad is wasn't.
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I for one am glad is wasn't.
Seconded
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Sounds like Nabu just needs a webcam and he's got a home-based business.
WRT Kevorkian, it's a thin line. On the one hand I feel it's unconscionable to force someone to endure unimaginable pain just so they can experience it for another month before they die, but on the other hand it'd be really easy for an HMO to "suggest" this when they don't feel like the expensive treatments would be above their minimum success rate.
I don't know. When it's the patient's choice, and they're not being forced/coerced into anything, and there's no chance for recovery, AND it will save them months of pain... yeah. But if there's ever a hint that any of those things aren't true, the shitstorm would be epic. Can you imagine the furor if a family member could make a case that someone was argued in to making this decision? I don't see a way with our current "lawsuits are the way to keep doctors in check" system that it would ever be legalized. Malpractice insurance would be in the millions. Monthly.
Argh.
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Move in with me and the wife, and you can pretty much go naked. That's what she does most of the time.
Should that have been a PM?
Heh! It usually takes a few days for The Rash to develop. But that's not a bad idea. Maybe let me know when you're back in the lower 48. :D
Sounds like Nabu just needs a webcam and he's got a home-based business.
WRT Kevorkian, it's a thin line. On the one hand I feel it's unconscionable to force someone to endure unimaginable pain just so they can experience it for another month before they die, but on the other hand it'd be really easy for an HMO to "suggest" this when they don't feel like the expensive treatments would be above their minimum success rate.
I don't know. When it's the patient's choice, and they're not being forced/coerced into anything, and there's no chance for recovery, AND it will save them months of pain... yeah. But if there's ever a hint that any of those things aren't true, the shitstorm would be epic. Can you imagine the furor if a family member could make a case that someone was argued in to making this decision? I don't see a way with our current "lawsuits are the way to keep doctors in check" system that it would ever be legalized. Malpractice insurance would be in the millions. Monthly.
Argh.
Man...that is something that I never thought of. Yeah, just killin' off the patients would be a quick way for the HMOs to save a few bucks. Ugh. It's a slippery slope, ain't it?
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I don't know. When it's the patient's choice, and they're not being forced/coerced into anything, and there's no chance for recovery, AND it will save them months of pain... yeah. But if there's ever a hint that any of those things aren't true, the shitstorm would be epic. Can you imagine the furor if a family member could make a case that someone was argued in to making this decision? I don't see a way with our current "lawsuits are the way to keep doctors in check" system that it would ever be legalized. Malpractice insurance would be in the millions. Monthly.
Argh.
Well, omelettes & eggs and all that. Look at capital punishment (oops, wrong guy). Or abortion. Anything worth fighting about is always better if it's really complicated and confusing.
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Heh! It usually takes a few days for The Rash to develop. But that's not a bad idea. Maybe let me know when you're back in the lower 48. :D
An ounce of prevention is basically like treasure, in this case.
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Anything worth fighting about is always better if it's really complicated and confusing.
QFT. How could we argue about such things if there weren't two really solid options to stand for!? How could we have such issues if there wasn't the possibility of being "confused and undecided," so that angry ladies could scream at you for wanting to own their wombs! (to clarify: I do not want to own anyone's wombs. my opinion on the whole thing is "it's complicated, and I don't know what the hell I think. Both sides completely mischaracterize and misunderstand the other side." This gets me in trouble, so I try to keep clammed up about it.)
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QFT. How could we argue about such things if there weren't two really solid options to stand for!? How could we have such issues if there wasn't the possibility of being "confused and undecided," so that angry ladies could scream at you for wanting to own their wombs! (to clarify: I do not want to own anyone's wombs. my opinion on the whole thing is "it's complicated, and I don't know what the hell I think. Both sides completely mischaracterize and misunderstand the other side." This gets me in trouble, so I try to keep clammed up about it.)
Like Bill Hicks said, there's never been a more divisive issue, it's practically a civil war. It's better just to Not Go There. We've already heard all the arguments before.
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I never thought St. Jack should have gone to jail in the first place. Good for him. I hope he goes right back out and starts helping people die with dignity again. The world needs him and people like him.
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Did Bill Hicks really say not to go there? I doubt that. Well, maybe he said it then went there himself. That is possible.
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He probably just said the first bit, maybe.
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personally, I've never decided whether I'd rather go out peacefully, or kicking and screaming and clawing for my last breath.
... this sounds like bullshit, but they're both so essentially human in different ways. Accepting death is enlightened and all... but the will to live is an awfully powerful thing.
luckily (?) most people don't really get to choose.
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Did Bill Hicks really say not to go there? I doubt that. Well, maybe he said it then went there himself. That is possible.
I said the part about "It's best to not go there." Hicks said:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bill_Hicks
What do you say we lighten things up and talk about abortion? You know, I feel like I'm losing some of you here, and I want to win all of you back with this one. Let's talk about abortion. Let's talk about child killing and see if we can't get some chuckles rippling through the room here. Let's talk about mass murder of young, unborn children and see if we can't coalesce into one big, healthy gut laugh. Ha ha ha ha!
Boy, I've never seen an issue so divisive. It's like a civil war, isn't it? Even amongst my friends, who are all very intelligent; they're totally divided on abortion. It's unbelievable. Some of my friends, for instance, think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. Other of my friends think these pro-life people … are evil fucks. How are we going to come to a consensus? You ought to hear the arguments around my house: "They're annoying, they're idiots." "They're evil, they're fucks!" Brothers, sisters, come together! Can't we once just join hands and think of them as evil-annoying-idiot-fucks? I beseech you. But that's me …
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Yeah, that is totally going there.
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I don't think there is anywhere the great mr. Hicks did not go.
Inev: I definitely get you. I've always figured that if my life were in that sort of situation I'd try anything and fight it to the very finish simply because I'm one of these freakshows that believes this is all we get and alive in pain is preferable to nothing.
However if every breath I drew was unimaginable pain without respite I might hold a slightly different view and I think this is definitely a choice a body must make for itself.
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Regarding the voluntary amputation folks, we saw an documentary on the subject a few months back, Whole (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0429245/). It has interviews with pre-amputee folks, post-amputee folks, one with a guy whose wife says she'll leave him if he does it, doctors debating whether the operations should be performed, etc.. It's pretty interesting, and you can find it on Netflix.
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I remember reading this smug op-ed piece written by a woman who was Catholic. She said that suffering was part of God's plan, and that trying to circumvent suffering through euthanasia was evil, weak, morally reprehensible, and Against God's Plan.
I couldn't help but wonder - is anesthesia during surgery Against God's Plan? Doesn't God want us to suffer? I guess her tactic was to say that anything that prolongs life was good, like surgery or antibiotics. So if suffering is the noble and Christ-like thing to do, why not just ban all painkillers and anesthesia and anesthetists and anesthesiologists? (note: does anybody know the difference between these two professions? I should Google it. I've heard people refer to both and I'm curious.)
For someone like her, a person who only has to occasionally pop a Tylenol for the errant headache...I find it incredibly arrogant for her to dictate that terminally ill patients don't deserve respite from pain. And even if she had gone through cancer or something that caused her to suffer - how does she know that her suffering equates to those of folks whose pain is so awful that they wish for death? We don't have an objective scale to measure pain. What I want to know is...how can she compare her suffering to that of other people?
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I remember reading this smug op-ed piece written by a woman who was Catholic. She said that suffering was part of God's plan, and that trying to circumvent suffering through euthanasia was evil, weak, morally reprehensible, and Against God's Plan.
I couldn't help but wonder - is anesthesia during surgery Against God's Plan? Doesn't God want us to suffer? I guess her tactic was to say that anything that prolongs life was good, like surgery or antibiotics. So if suffering is the noble and Christ-like thing to do, why not just ban all painkillers and anesthesia and anesthetists and anesthesiologists? (note: does anybody know the difference between these two professions? I should Google it. I've heard people refer to both and I'm curious.)
For someone like her, a person who only has to occasionally pop a Tylenol for the errant headache...I find it incredibly arrogant for her to dictate that terminally ill patients don't deserve respite from pain. And even if she had gone through cancer or something that caused her to suffer - how does she know that her suffering equates to those of folks whose pain is so awful that they wish for death? We don't have an objective scale to measure pain. What I want to know is...how can she compare her suffering to that of other people?
Seconded. I get pretty suspicious whenever any mere human starts telling me what God's plan is.
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Agreed, AW.
I mean...obviously, crucifixion was the worst thing that could happen to you in Jesus' time. And yes, he paid the ultimate price for all of humanity. And yes, all the major religions accept that suffering is a part of human life. I can understand why some folks think that euthanasia should be illegal. But...saying that people deserve to suffer needlessly? I cannot get behind that.
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anesthetists and anesthesiologists? (note: does anybody know the difference between these two professions?
Interchangeable terms. Probably a British vs. American spelling situation.
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What happened to jesus suffering so I don't have to? Wasn't that an important dogma at some point? Jesus died for my panadol!
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Nah, Christ only died so you don't have to suffer after death. While you're here, God's going to make you his bitch.
(This is why haemorrhoids are so common.)
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(This is why haemorrhoids are so common.)
..are they? fuck. I do not miss the future.
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..are they? fuck. I do not miss the future.
As Roger Waters once said, "I've got . . . some bad news for you, Sunshine."
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..are they? fuck. I do not miss the future.
SOON: What the?!...is that...blood?
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I do not miss the future.
I'm stealing this line whenever I can, is it from something I should be aware of? Seems like it is.
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It is from Achewood (http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=08172006).
I have personally co-opted "Life is never neat, life is always bad." from Achewood, as well as "Everything is the worst." from 30 Rock.
Those two phrases are interchangeable.
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I almost wish we saw more of that baby. Damn cute.
Also, the future old version of me is a damn bitch to cashiers. I would like to apologize for the future me.
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..are they? fuck. I do not miss the future.
9 And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts...4 Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords. 5 Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.
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I don't even want to think about "five golden emerods," thanks.