The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: linnea on December 13, 2007, 02:50:04 am
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As Perez said (http://perezhilton.com/?p=10432), he'll be best remembered for being a wife beater and drug addict. Obituary link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071212.wike_turner1212/BNStory/Entertainment/home?cid=al_gam_mostview).
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It drives me nuts how some entertainers get away with doing anything they want, and some get the comeuppance they rightly deserve. A lot of fantastic musicians have been thugs, druggies, and just utter assholes. Do we remember Ike as a wife-beater only because the woman he beat was Tina Turner? We let these people get away with too much. I can accept that, say, Jim Morrison was a complete asshole and still like his music, you know? A lot of the big rock guys were complete douchebags, especially to women, and yet the only case in which it seems to overshadow their contributions is in this one.
I mean, maybe because no one has ever heard "Rocket 88" unless they googled "first rock song."
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The world is full of douchebags who use drugs and treat people bad.
Some make no contribution to the world at all. Most just exist and die.
Ike Turner had some good times, did some memorable things. He also happened to be at some point one of a billion douchebags on the planet. Except he was famous so he was a douchebag in a giraffebowl.
Good music, Ike.
Maybe he was a dick. But the brother could play and that's what the world wrung out of him.
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600 million, douche.
And oh yeah, damn good point.
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That movie about Ike and Tina is probably about as factual as Pearl Harbor. You can't believe a fuck*ng thing that Hollywood tells you.
Ike Turner (and Sam Phillips) Invented Rock and Roll.
They're partying in heaven tonight.
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Well, I wouldn't go so far as to dismiss what he did to his wives that completely, Paul, but...yeah (http://www.moistworks.com/2007/12/prancin-icky-renrut-1952-available-on.html).
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Ike Turner was a fully-stamped-sealed-and-enrolled royal douchebag.
He was also one of the great shapers of our musical culture as it stands today.
I'm comfortable with the idea that both of these things are true and... since I never met the guy... why should I try to rectify that? Why is that my concern or my job, y'know?
The older I get, the less comfortable I am with people wanting their public figures to be heroic and moral in their personal lives or else their public achievements don't mean anything and... tied up in that... the desire to believe that someone is/was a great person just because they did a great thing once, especially if that great thing was in the arts or a sport or something.
It's one thing to try and apply personal morality to politicians, maybe, there's at least SOME validity to that... if not full validity... but if you liked how a guy played a guitar and he turned out to eat babies, man, how does that change the music you listened to? Christ, some of the guys that seem the "nicest" in sports are some of the least talented.
The Mets have scooped out the heart of their talent... getting old injured untalented guys who are really nice and discarding talented guys who've also maybe been arrogant or jerks. I ain't paying to see nice people hang out, I can do that on my own time.
We want our famous people to also be our Pantheon of gods, we want to be able to project ourselves onto them and have them live our dreams out for us and... it's fuck*ng disgusting. It holds us down as a species more than any other factor... more than any religion or power structure or economic model...
Our desire to designate certain humans as gods that we can live triumphs through and never try anything ourselves...
And then be crushed and rageful if they make different choices or turn out to be dickweeds... and still do nothing ourselves...
The older I get (and the longer I live in Southern California) the more I realize that... this is our fatal flaw.
Ike Turner was a great artist and a terrible human being and... neither of those things changes nor modifies nor condemns nor justifies nor negates the other.
We love Britney Spears for being a "normal" cute kid at first and then we hate her for "screwing up" the fame and beauty and fortune we wished we had, that we put upon her the responsibility of letting us live through... and then we hate her for crumbling into madness under the weight of the flip-side of all that, of being a millionaire sex-symbol when she was supposed to be a freshman in college or whatever.
We love Barry Bonds for smashing home runs, we hate him for being a dick to the press... oh, we'd do it for free, oh, we'd smile for every camera, we'd just be so gosh-darned happy to be there, we'd never need to cheat, we'd just be happy with the gifts we already had...
We hate him for blowing the shot we wished we had and how he blew it.
And sit around hating him for it instead of doing something great ourselves.
If there's a Christian heaven and hell... which I must say, I have my doubts on... Ike Turner's burning long and good.
And he also made some great fuck*ng music that'll probably live on much longer than we do, if there's still Western Civilization around in a hundred years... which I also have my doubts on.
And...
It's okay that both of these things are true, y'know.
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We want our famous people to also be our Pantheon of gods, we want to be able to project ourselves onto them and have them live our dreams out for us and... it's fuck*ng disgusting. It holds us down as a species more than any other factor... more than any religion or power structure or economic model...
See, this is why I don't get that you like Guns n' Roses and the like so much. Bands like that are the epitome of that to me. "LOOK HOW FAST I CAN PLAY THESE NOTES! JESUS! IMAGINE HOW MUCH PUSSY I AM GETTING TONIGHT! I MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU WILL MAKE IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE EVERY TIME I HIT THIS GUITAR STRING!"
To me, punk music is about this idea. The idea that music is something that everyone can do. musicians aren't meant to be worshiped.
...I mean, except Hendrix, The Beatles, you know how it goes.
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See, this is why I don't get that you like Guns n' Roses and the like so much. Bands like that are the epitome of that to me. "LOOK HOW FAST I CAN PLAY THESE NOTES! JESUS! IMAGINE HOW MUCH PUSSY I AM GETTING TONIGHT! I MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU WILL MAKE IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE EVERY TIME I HIT THIS GUITAR STRING!"
To me, punk music is about this idea. The idea that music is something that everyone can do. musicians aren't meant to be worshiped.
...I mean, except Hendrix, The Beatles, you know how it goes.
Don't forget about the reprehensible misogynism in some of Axel Rose's (in Rock Star Persona?) interviews and the original cover art for "Appetite for Destruction". I actually had issues with Axel when I put all that stuff together in my head, but that's still a band with serious rock chops.
And maybe musicians aren't meant to be worshiped (but the music is, dig?) but that doesn't mean we can easily displace our own notions of propriety and social order easily when presented with the non-musical aspects of human beings. It comes down to whether or not you feel like you are supporting certain values if you buy the music. If you feel that way, you might focus overly much on the aspects of your fellow human being to which you object rather than what they produce that you might otherwise really like.
The whole Dog Chapman thing illustrated this to me. People love to be entertained by a relatively coarse guy who dwelled partially in the more sordid underbelly of society catching bad guys. I don't think anyone expects Dog to shave, cut off the mullet, don a shirt with a collar and melt into suburbia. He's not that guy. He was never that guy. We safely assume he uses a lot of cusses. We may even assume (possibly wrongly) things about his upbringing or his family life.
So who could be possibly surprised that, in a fit of anger with one of his kinds, with whom he's had documented 'differences and disagreements' with, he uses some objectionable and in the eyes of many, culturally and socially unacceptable language?
Yet he pretty much hanged for it. Not that he's hurting- unless he's financially overextended, I know they have lots of property and are doing just fine.
Maybe it's just that we too often compare people to ourselves, and then, naturally, find them wanting.
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Ah, GNR speaks to the fourteen-year-old stuck in a shitkicker little town, frustrated as hell, that still lives inside me.
Much as they were psychotic and driven insane by fame and riches... I listen to a song like "Dead hoss" or "Estranged" and... they do speak to a part of my life experience, to the part of me that's half-crazy and half-wise but can't tell the difference between the two.
Forget the image and so on... they're songs about a well-read but slightly deranged Midwesterner with a fucked-up youth transplanted to Los Angeles and trying to make it in entertainment while all the while trying to not give into the madness. Of course they're gonna make sense to me.
C'mon, though, I've seen just as much fucked-up hero worship of the Ramones and Johnny Rotten and Sid N Nancy as anyone else.
Punk is hardly hardly hardly immune. Even if the starting ethos is, as you claim, "we suck on our instruments and since most people suck on instruments, this democratizes the music!"... it didn't last very long at all.
You can go into Best Buy and buy a Guitar Hero guitar that says "Sex Pistols" on it... if democracy-through-mediocrity was punk's goal, it really really really fuck*ng failed.
Yeah, of course, they're all terribly flawed human beings.
Most human beings are terribly flawed and... the more drive we have toward possessing soul-toxic things like riches and fame, the more fucked up of a place we probably come from.
If you NEED to be famous so bad that you'll make your whole life about being famous, you're probably deeply fuck*ng twisted to start.
But this transcends any genre within music or entertainment or business or anything.
Generally, the people who are great successes became them because they were able to abandon most of the other things in their lives... their ethics, their old friends, their family, their privacy, their downtime, their outside hobbies, their sanity... to claw to the top of that fuck*ng mountain.
The system is basically rigged against people who ain't gonna sell their soul with a smile, of course, none of them are heroes.
But some of them still make music that speaks to me and I like that music a whole damned lot, even if they're assholes.
But still.... which is gonna make more sense for me to connect with?
"I ain't quite what you'd call an old soul/still wet behind the ears/I've been around this track a coupla times and now the/dust is startin' to clear"
OR
"Oooooooooy am an anarchist/Ooooooy am an anti-christ/Ooooooy (unintelligible)/etc"
It's gonna be the first one.
If you connect more with the second, well, mazeltov for you.
But my liking a GNR has nothing more to do with my desire to emulate a late eighties rock "scene" than your like of the second means that you wanna die in a flat in London surrounded with filth and four heroin needles in ya or... whatever the hell the punk thing is.
I dig one artistic expression, you dig another and... all the people who made both of them were probably humoungous douchebags.
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If there's a Christian heaven and hell... which I must say, I have my doubts on... Ike Turner's burning long and good.
Well, I hope that Ike at some point in his life turned around his sinful nature and worked toward improving himself and living something closer to the kind of life God envisioned for him. In that case, maybe ol' Ike is doing OK. I'd rather think that. Positivity helps everyone. I really believe that to some degree Religion helps people and gives people higher levels of life satisfaction and happiness in poll after poll because it gives them some degree of hope and positivity.
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Well, to be fair, you could read those the opposite way around and say that... it's easier for happy people to buy into a religious worldview because... hey... things are good for them so there must be an intellect behind this strange themepark we're all stumbling around in.
But I get your general point about Ike and agree with it.
Frankly, if the fundamentalist Christian vision of the afterlife is correct, it means that God is kinda a dick.
And if there's a God, I'd rather not believe that of Him/Her/It.
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I dig one artistic expression, you dig another and... all the people who made both of them were probably humoungous douchebags.
I hope it's just where you are right now in your life that makes you see the bad side of everything - I really do. Right now, I know from other posts that someone else's shit hit your fan, and it blows, seriously.
My house is packed up. My wife and daughters are leaving in January. I gotta stay here to work at a job I really don't like, in the hopes of getting back into something resembling the career I had and was happy with. Every day that goes by right now brings me closer to the minute I send everyone I care about the most through a metal detector and across 5000 miles. Is it easy to stay positive about it? No.
I cry about it when I'm by myself and I realize that it all comes back to me and apparently a large need on my part to be humbled and/or taught and/or formed. I'm accepting it and I'll be accepting better things when they come.
We do our best and try to create opportunities to grow and improve from the rubble we perceive that, at times, our lives have become. And of course, remember that there are people suffering degrees of sickness, death, and loss that is unfathomable (and that if we have something and someone we care about has nothing, no matter how small our something is, it's made all the greater by sharing).
I'm not saying go out there and find religion or spirituality or anything like that. That's your choice to make and finding it doesn't mean you let it transform you. But at least let a little love in, and once it's in, let it out for your fellow man - maybe start by thinking or expressing a little positivity. It's a start.
This is going to be a terrible Christmas in some ways for me. And 40th Birthday, too. But it's gonna be great for my kids and next year - next year has to be awesome. I hope yours is awesome too.
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If there's a Christian heaven and hell... which I must say, I have my doubts on... Ike Turner's burning long and good.
(not totally serious) What about the insta-release deathbed confession and acceptance of Jesus? Doesn't that one still work? I went to catholic school and Im pretty sure that one still at least buys a dude some purgatory, as long as the confessor truly confesses that is.
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I hope it's just where you are right now in your life that makes you see the bad side of everything - I really do. Right now, I know from other posts that someone else's shit hit your fan, and it blows, seriously.
My house is packed up. My wife and daughters are leaving in January. I gotta stay here to work at a job I really don't like, in the hopes of getting back into something resembling the career I had and was happy with. Every day that goes by right now brings me closer to the minute I send everyone I care about the most through a metal detector and across 5000 miles. Is it easy to stay positive about it? No.
I cry about it when I'm by myself...
This is going to be a terrible Christmas in some ways for me.
We need like a touamb group hug or an open bar, one of those, probably both. The stars are just not aligned this year.
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I'm in a bad place, yeah, but I think... there's something about the internet that makes me sound like I'm more down than I actually am.
I'm definitely in a cynical place, though, yeah. Yeah.
I am not this negative a person but... the last year has really beaten the living fuck out of me and... it looks like more to come for a good long while. There's only so much any of us can take, I reckon.
Here's hopin' for next Christmas for you guys, too. For me, too.
What's the old Jewish saying... "Next year, in Jerusalem!"? Somethin' like that? Yeah.
...yeah.
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We need like a touamb group hug or an open bar, one of those, probably both. The stars are just not aligned this year.
2007 was a colossally bad year for me, too. I sure as fuck hope that 2008 is better.
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Yeah, this year has pretty much been shit.
Still, OT, we at least have 2008 to look forward to. Unlike Ike Turner.
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I mean, I don't really consider the Sex Pistols when I think about punk. They were basically a fake concept. I'm not arguing about this, though. They did the whole thing basically to get famous, and so I would say they were not really very punk at their core.
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So, if you don't consider the Sex Pistols punk....who exactly do you consider punk?
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um. What I meant is... I guess they are a punk-style-music thing. But when I say I like punk, I mean the whole DIY lo-fi simple music thing, not just the sound.
minor threat, bad brains, Husker Du, the ramones, black flag, dead kennedys, the first clash album, DOA, various other acronym names. And then, all the stuff that called itself punk or came from punk because there wasn't a real definition of punk yet-- proto-punk stuff like The Stooges and Television and Richard Hell and the Voidoids, stuff like early Flaming Lips, Fugazi, Minutemen (SO GOOD), all the british "post-punk" stuff like the Gang of Four and what have you.
I don't know. I guess when I say I like punk, what I mean is that I like the bands that heard the Sex Pistols or Ramones and said "shit, that's easy. I can do that."
There's a story which is probably my favorite music anecdote of all time about the Minutemen. They'd been in a Who cover band for years together, just spending all this time learning to play pretty-good versions of Pinball Wizard and My Generation and stuff. They would read music magazines, and one day they heard about this stuff called Punk (I believe this was the real early stuff-- the first ramones record, Television, etc). They looked at these pictures, and said "huh. it's probably some kind of really out-there shit... all jazzy and stuff."
Then they sent away for a 45, and got it, and said "holy shit! we can play better than these guys, and they have a record out! We can... we can start a band! we can write songs!"
They said that, growing up in a shitty suburb of LA, they thought that rock music was made by people who were born talented, the kids who pick up a guitar and can play it within a week. They figured that they were too Normal to make rock music. They couldn't play ripping solos, they couldn't come up with these insanely complex chord changes. Rock music seemed too far away, it was made by people on TV and on the Radio, not people that lived in the suburbs with their parents. But hearing this music, this simple music, made them realize that they could do it too. And so they did. They wrote some of the best fuck*ng songs I have ever heard. Then, you know, Dan Boone died in a freak car accident, and now Mike Watt plays bass on Kelly Clarkson records.
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So, if you don't consider the Sex Pistols punk....who exactly do you consider punk?
This reminds me of the Joe Strummer documentary I watched recently. They show an interview with this girl in a leather jacket and like a studded collar and stuff. This is like 1984 maybe. And she says that the Clash aren't punk at all, they're pop. And I'm sitting there watching this thinking, "dude, they're the fuck*ng CLASH. I can't wrap my head around them being anything but punk."
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This reminds me of this friend of mine, for whom every band he had heard of that no one else had was cool.
As soon as they had a breath of commercial success, they were sellouts and therefore automatically sucked.
This sounds a lot like Daniel's idea of punk to me.
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maybe. maybe. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like plenty bands that are popular. It just seems to me that the Punk genre is pretty ill-defined. The idea of a successful punk band, though, seems pretty nonsensical to me. I mean, I guess I have a pretty US-centric view of punk, as most of my knowledge comes from reading Our Band Could Be your Life something like 5 times. The reason I like punk as an idea is that it provided a structure for people to make music outside of the mainstream record industry. But this version was mostly in the US, in my understanding. In the UK it was much more of a Fad thing, where a ton of bands got signed trying to sound like the Sex Pistols, and then people got sick of it and moved on to New Wave and stuff.
I don't really think The Clash are very punk, either. They blended punk with a lot of other stuff, and that's what made them good. But I would say that... it made them stop really being Punk. I would say they were just rock music. "White Riot" is punk. "London Calling" is really great, but it does not seem very punk to me. The same way that I would say that "Jesus Shootin' Heroin" is a lot more punk than "Yoshimi Battles the Pink *****s." I don't know.
I guess my understanding of punk is mostly based on the Idea of punk as a self-propelled counter-cultural movement. That, and that I really like fast, intense music.
And I hate the idea of trying to narrowly define these things. I also don't like that I am making long posts deciding what bands are punk and what bands are not.
Basically, when it talk about punk, I am talking more about the Spirit of rock music made by amateurs, made for the love of the music or the fun of performing, or just for something to do... not music made to be successful. I guess I need a better thing to call it than punk. But as far as I'm concerned, the Sex Pistols are not really very many of the things that punk is about.
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Punk music played that only 10 people hear is good.
Punk music that is sold to 100,000 people sucks.
Close?
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well. it depends.
Was this band invented by Malcolm Maclaren specifically to sell records?
Did this band get together with the intention of making music in order to make exorbitant amounts of money?
I mean, I love Kurt Cobain, and he certainly wanted to be famous. But he also wanted to make good music, and strove for that. He struggled with wanting to be famous, and hating the idea of being famous at the same time. Was Nirvana punk? Yes and no.
I wouldn't say that Punk music sold to 100,000 people sucks. I would just say that it isn't very punk if that was the goal. I mean, Green Day? Not punk. Nothing about them is punk save their influences. If 100,000 people go out and buy the first Ramones record, it's still punk.
I mean, really, it's the same old argument about Folk music. Are Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, Cat Stevens, whoever, really folk? Their music isn't made by "folks," it's made by rich rock stars. I like folk music because it's pretty, and it's old, and great. But also-- because it isn't made by Celebrities. It's just made by people. It is good music, played well by men.
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Dawg, the bands Inev listed there are all very popular. Seriously.
Also, I only have four dollars and I just graduated tonight and that kind of sucks, but I am going to find a way to party anyhow. You all should just party more when you got the chance, you know.
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Dawg, the bands Inev listed there are all very popular. Seriously.
Also, I only have four dollars and I just graduated tonight and that kind of sucks, but I am going to find a way to party anyhow. You all should just party more when you got the chance, you know.
Congratulations!
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Dawg, the bands Inev listed there are all very popular. Seriously.
I am always interested in the perception of these things. My roommates have never heard of any of these bands, and yet most of the people I hang around with socially have. We had a big discussion at the radio station the other day when someone complained that too many people play the same "popular shit" like Neutral Milk Hotel and the Velvet Underground. I mentioned that I had brought up the Velvet Underground in a music class I took, and only 3 or 4 other people out of 40 or so 18-22 year olds had heard of them. I have a tendency to assume everything I like is unpopular and unknown, as my high school friends who were into music were all into newer "indie" stuff. I have a big shock every time I hear "She Don't Use Jelly" or something on the radio here.
This also leads to me developing crushes on every girl I meet who has heard of, say, The Minutemen.
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Thanks man.
Also, I am eating plain macaroni noodles. I thought life was supposed to get better with a college degree!?!
I didn't make this clear, but Inev is also right that the Sex Pistols are not punk. Not at all. In fact, his almost analogy between them and Green Day, as long as it wasn't made just to get himself a can, gets him a can.
I am always interested in the perception of these things. My roommates have never heard of any of these bands, and yet most of the people I hang around with socially have. We had a big discussion at the radio station the other day when someone complained that too many people play the same "popular shit" like Neutral Milk Hotel and the Velvet Underground. I mentioned that I had brought up the Velvet Underground in a music class I took, and only 3 or 4 other people out of 40 or so 18-22 year olds had heard of them. I have a tendency to assume everything I like is unpopular and unknown, as my high school friends who were into music were all into newer "indie" stuff. I have a big shock every time I hear "She Don't Use Jelly" or something on the radio here.
You know, I have thought the exact same thing. I don't know what the answer is, but that is pretty weird. It is weird being around people who have the same interests as me who didn't go to high school with me, but, well, they are all over the place, even in Oklahoma. Actually, my city has produced a lot of well known bads recently, which may be why.
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I have heard of most of those bands, heard one song and then... quickly found them uninteresting. Went and borrowed another one of my dad's Pink Floyd LPs instead.
As a Flaming Lips fan, I gotta admit... I'm a tad bit offended that they're be painted with the broad brush of "punk". They have more in common with the prog movement than anything else.
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That is bad Lips. Or, the last two, maybe three.
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yeah, I didn't really mean that they were "punk" per se-- but the impulse of just saying "screw you, we're going to make music like Pink Floyd, but without musical knowledge to any degree" is the impulse that I find appealing in punk.
"Finally, the punk rockers are taking acid!"
-Wayne Coyne
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I don't know that I'd say I LOVE The Flaming Lips, but I enjoyed Yoshimi a lot. I love the hell out of Steve Burns' Songs For Dustmites, which is heavily Lips-influenced and produced by one of them.
That being said, I will never get my initial assessment of them out of my head, which was: "Man, Wayne Coyne looks like Gay Dennis Miller."
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Waynecoyne.jpg)
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I don't know that I'd say I LOVE The Flaming Lips, but I enjoyed Yoshimi a lot. I love the hell out of Steve Burns' Songs For Dustmites, which is heavily Lips-influenced and produced by one of them.
That being said, I will never get my initial assessment of them out of my head, which was: "Man, Wayne Coyne looks like Gay Dennis Miller."
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Waynecoyne.jpg)
I haven't the faintest clue who the fuck Wayne Coyne is, but damn if that doesn't look like Gay Dennis Miller.
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See, I think he looks like if Steven Wright and Commander Data had a child.
...who would make pithy observations about life without ever using contractions, presumably.
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I didn't make this clear, but Inev is also right that the Sex Pistols are not punk. Not at all.
Sigh.
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OK, I just went back and listened to snippets of Kerplunk by Green Day, and it sounds like punk to me.
Over on Last.fm there's this unending fight on Green Day's wiki page. Somebody will put "Green Day is a punk band..." then somebody will change punk to pop, then a 3rd person will change it to pop-punk, followed by punk-pop, then back to punk again. It was really funny to watch how mad the editors were at the previous person's genre choice but after like 4 straight months it got really old.
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I love punk. Have loved it since I was 15, depressed as hell, searching for acceptance in any way I could find it. Still love it at 23, happily adjusted with a great job and great friends.
But through it all, I've always hated the fuck*ng Sex Pistols. That they are ever mentioned in the same breath as The Clash is a travesty. The Sex Pistols are punk, lower-case P, sales tag with MSRP dangling from the K. The Clash? They're Punk. Capital P. They fuck*ng matter.
That's really the best I can describe it.
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I've always hated the fuck*ng Sex Pistols. That they are ever mentioned in the same breath as The Clash is a travesty. The Sex Pistols are punk, lower-case P, sales tag with MSRP dangling from the K.
Goodness gracious, there are some silly people posting in this thread.
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Like I say... I sure can't tell the difference.
This is just my personal opinion here but... to my ears, nearly everything I've ever heard to be called "punk" sounded like upper-middle class kids fuck*ng around and pretending to be poor because they think its cool and... manifesting this facade through never learning how to play their instruments.
Just me, your mileage will definitely vary but... it is hard to imagine a difference between all of these bands that sound exactly alike to me.
The only difference seems to be if the singer is an upper-class Londoner affecting a working class British accent or if it is a middle-class teenager from coastal Orange County affecting that same working class British accent.
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wow man, you sure can judge people's lives pretty well just by how their guitar chords sound.
I mean, Kenny Chesney sounds pretty Country to me. I don't think I'd get away with saying he isn't pop, though, you know?
The man is pop. Maybe it's country-sounding pop, but it's still pop.
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Listen to Sandinista asshole. (I am super drunk, pissed off and on amphetamine, fuck yourself clash haters. On another topic, I am listening to sandinista.
Edit: and oh yeah, I'll agree with inev that that isn't really punk, but also I disagree. Man, punk is a state of mind and the sex pistols didn't have that state, they just hired a cat to kill his gf and himself. He wasn't even punk, because he was just in it for the money. The clash have that state even if they are singing reggae songs. And oh yeah, the Clash version of Police and Thieves is the greatest song, and representation of punk ever recorded. Like I said, basicallt alcohol posioning drunk.
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Like I say... I sure can't tell the difference.
This is just my personal opinion here but... to my ears, nearly everything I've ever heard to be called "punk" sounded like upper-middle class kids fuck*ng around and pretending to be poor because they think its cool and... manifesting this facade through never learning how to play their instruments.
See, I find this funny because of all the Good Charlotte hate when they first got big. People would cry out "they're not punk! They're a lame pop band just trying to get rich!" This is hilarious because they really were two poor brothers who formed a band just to get rich. They never claimed to be punk that I heard. Hell, the lyrics to their first major single were all about "I hope this band does well so that we can afford an apartment and maybe some Christmas presents this year." They just happened to have kind of punkish clothes and hair, mainly because one of them had a day job in an alternative salon for several years.
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Goodness gracious, there are some silly people posting in this thread.
Sigh.
See, these two posts have the same amount of substance as the Sex Pistols' entire discography. That's the point I'm getting at.
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Who the fuck cares if something is "punk" or not!
Do you like the music or don't you? That is all that matters.
Quit arguing over labels!
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Bringing Aug's post together with another thread: Peter Schickele's motto on his radio show was a quote from Duke Ellington: "If it sounds good, it is good."
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the only reason I care in this context is that people are saying that they don't like punk music, and then citing examples which I don't consider to be very good examples at all.
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Okay, so... let's stop talking about punk before this thread goes the way of the last one. I think it's pretty plain to see that some of us like it, some of us hate it, and some of us have no idea what "it" is (the latter might be all of us, I think).
So! Ike Turner. Kind of a dick, yeah? Sucks that he's dead, though. OR DOES IT???
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My favourite line in Schickele Mix:
"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got... that certain je ne sais qua."
That line is funny on so many goddamned levels.
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Okay, so... let's stop talking about punk before this thread goes the way of the last one. I think it's pretty plain to see that some of us like it, some of us hate it, and some of us have no idea what "it" is (the latter might be all of us, I think).
So! Ike Turner. Kind of a dick, yeah? Sucks that he's dead, though. OR DOES IT???
I don't think that Tina went to his funeral. I don't blame her! I read my mom's paperback copy of "I, Tina" (cowritten with Kurt Loder) when I was in 4th grade and cried my eyes out. I think that reading that book during my formative years (along with a multitude of other factors) really gave me incentive to want to help alleviate domestic violence, hence my volunteer work.
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Oh man, Kurt Loder, there's a person I haven't thought of in...
About as long as you can possibly think of someone who was halfway famous 15 years ago.
You begin to wonder if people like that ever actually existed or, like, if you just made them up for the purposes of your memories making sense. Like MTV had a news show and so you just kind of conflated an average of VJ traits and television news-anchor traits and they...
They just became a retroactively manufactured memory of "Kurt Loder".
Just so that your memories flow better. A literary device in an actual world.
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Does Kurt Loder still work for MTV? That guy's got to be really ancient now, because he was pretty ancient when I was 12 and could still stomach that channel.
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They drag him and John Norris out whenever something Serious is going on. Major artist dying or something like that. That and the MTV Music Awards.
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Can'd for proper capitaliziation.
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See, these two posts have the same amount of substance as the Sex Pistols' entire discography. That's the point I'm getting at.
If you're going to say things that are dopey, like "the Sex Pistols weren't a punk band" or the above quote ( about a band who only released one album ), you are going to appear like a dope. That's the point I'm getting at.
Not that I don't think the Clash are awesome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_%28band%29).
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If you're going to say things that are dopey, like "the Sex Pistols weren't a punk band" or the above quote ( about a band who only released one album ), you are going to appear like a dope. That's the point I'm getting at.
Not that I don't think the Clash are awesome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_%28band%29).
Fun Fact: Singles count under the word discography, too. Hey! Who knew.
And you'll notice I didn't say the Sex Pistols aren't punk. They are, I guess, in the vaguest sense of an already vague word. I'm just saying they don't hold a candle to the Clash. I just used a bit of hyperbole (big p, little p) to illustrate my point.
It's fine that you like them. Really. Go on ahead. That's great.
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Fun Fact: Singles count under the word discography, too. Hey! Who knew.
And you'll notice I didn't say the Sex Pistols aren't punk. They are, I guess, in the vaguest sense of an already vague word. I'm just saying they don't hold a candle to the Clash. I just used a bit of hyperbole (big p, little p) to illustrate my point.
It's fine that you like them. Really. Go on ahead. That's great.
Oh, for Christ's sake. Take your damn lame Punk vs. Not Punk discussion elsewhere. This is a thread about Ike!
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Okay, so... let's stop talking about punk before this thread goes the way of the last one. I think it's pretty plain to see that some of us like it, some of us hate it, and some of us have no idea what "it" is (the latter might be all of us, I think).
So! Ike Turner. Kind of a dick, yeah? Sucks that he's dead, though. OR DOES IT???
Linnea: You'll see I already tried that trick. Time to try it again. Sorry, limmo. We can get into a pissing contest another time, maybe?
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For the record, I did my best to try and dislodge the punk debate with a discussion of how Kurt Loder is an imaginary cultural artifact, just like... the Easter Bunny or Osama Bin Laden.
Just... puttin' it out there that I tried my best. haha.
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You did, and I applaud you for it. I also applaud you for comparing Kurt Loder to Osama bin Laden. They both share the ability to taunt death with occasional appearances to confirm they are still alive.
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Linnea: You'll see I already tried that trick. Time to try it again. Sorry, limmo. We can get into a pissing contest another time, maybe?
Nah, let's just do it now! Never Mind the Bollocks shits on anything the Clash did from a height of several hundred feet! Whee! This is fun!
Seriously, though: I tarred you unfairly as a subscriber to the dopey meme "The Sex Pistols were not a punk band." For that, I apologize.
I also don't particularly care about the Clash vs. Sex Pistols punkier-than-thou thing. The first three Clash albums were quite a thing, though I seldom listen to them as much as the Pistols album. ( And The Buzzcocks wiped the floor with both of them, so there you go. )
However: you ( and by "you," melack, I don't mean you ) can perform all the Cirque du Soleil-level mental gymnastics you want to convince yourself that "The Sex Pistols were not a punk band", but that still doesn't make it true, any more than "the sky is not really blue" or "Republicans care about the environment." Because they were. Q.E.D. I would commend Julien Temple's film The Filth and the Fury , which documents the state of panic that one little band brought to an entire country, to the attention of those who disagree.
If Kurt Loder is an imaginary cultural artifact, then why has he aged so much less gracefully than the Easter Bunny?
Ike Turner: kind of a dick. And, yes, it sucks that he's dead - in an agnostic sense, he's lost the only thing anybody really ever has.
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Agree to disagree. Also, I have to disagree about Kurt Loder, too. The dude was like 90 years old when he first started with MTV, so he's what, 115 now? The dude looks awesome for a 115 year old man.
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Agree to disagree. Also, I have to disagree about Kurt Loder, too. The dude was like 90 years old when he first started with MTV, so he's what, 115 now? The dude looks awesome for a 115 year old man.
He's actually 127. Dick Clark looks on in envy.
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I have never heard of this man, and I do not really feel like I am missing out.
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I have never heard of this man, and I do not really feel like I am missing out.
Yeah, Kurt Loder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Loder) was a VJ on MTV long before your time. How old were you when Cobain killed himself? (EDIT: Cobain shot himself on April 5, 1994. Theinev would have been around SIX YEARS OLD.) Because Loder was the one who broke the news on television. I always liked Loder, for some reason. The way he (and the network) presented himself made me think he was trustworthy. Weird.
Also, Kurt Loder was born in 1945, making him older than my father.
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Was he really a VJ? I figured he was always The News Guy.
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Was he really a VJ? I figured he was always The News Guy.
I seem to remember him hosting segments other than MTV News and also introducing videos. Maybe I am wrong, however?
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He wasn't even one of the original 5 VJs and I never liked him that much anyway.
Bring back Martha Quinn!
and also the game show "Remote Control".
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...also?
Liquid Television, for God's sake. That was sooo good.
Alex Winter's "The Idiot Box" would also be rad but admittedly perhaps too obscure.
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The only time I've ever seen more than 3 consecutive minutes of MTV was back when they used to show Monty Python's Flying Circus. I had never heard of Kurt Loder before this thread. Although his name did sound vaguely familiar so I must have heard it before out of context.
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Bring back Martha Quinn!
Dude, Martha Quinn probably looks like Joan Rivers now.
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Liquid Television, for God's sake. That was sooo good.
Yes. Yes it was. That was the last time I can remember voluntarily watching MTV before it became the Lil' Nephew network.
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Dude, Martha Quinn probably looks like Joan Rivers now.
To borrow from Fark: I'd hit it. (http://marthaquinnpresents.com/)
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And it hasn't even been the Lil Nephew Network in years... at least then, they still occasionally played videos and whatnot.
It seems to be that MTV is targeted specifically at upper-middle-class 11-year-old girls who wear ##### that say "Juicy" and can't wait until they're old enough to star in High School Musicals and reality shows and stuff.
Reality shows make me want to collapse the universe forever.
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It seems to be that MTV is targeted specifically at upper-middle-class 11-year-old girls who wear ****** that say "Juicy" bloo bloo bla bla bla
The only thing saying "juicy" that anybody should own is a pack of gum.
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Reality shows make me want to collapse the universe forever.
On that note I read a semi-serious article prophesising that the writers strike means obviously no more scripted shows this year and if it doesn't clear up soon, no more new scripted shows next year and could end up really changing the television industry, and it got me to thinking what if next year it's all wall to wall reality TV? I mean, I don't have to watch it but it's almost certain people I know will try to *talk* to me about it.
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The only time I've ever seen more than 3 consecutive minutes of MTV was back when they used to show Monty Python's Flying Circus. I had never heard of Kurt Loder before this thread. Although his name did sound vaguely familiar so I must have heard it before out of context.
OK, I have to say it: I'm old enough to have watched MTV when they actually played music videos.
As for the writer's strike: They were just saying on NPR that the writers were negotiating with some independent production companies - something in the rules allows this - and that The Daily Show might come back. Please let this be true!
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According to several wrestling sites NBC is already in talks to extend the season of the new American Gladiators (hosted by Hulk Hogan) and wants WWE to run more Saturday Night's Main Event-style prime-time specials to fill voids.
I can see it now: The Office will not be seen tonight so that we may present Hornswoggle the Leprechaun vs. The Great Khali. Then stay tuned for Atlassphere!
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To borrow from Fark: I'd hit it. (http://marthaquinnpresents.com/)
YOW!!!
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To borrow from Fark: I'd hit it. (http://marthaquinnpresents.com/)
Seems like she might be kind of awesome.
I’m afraid (most of my thoughts start out that way) that if I died, one day my kids would say to each other, “It’s really for the best. Look how much cleaner our house is now.”
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Ehhhh, I dunno.
Maybe I'm just still kind of too young but... she kind of looks like Alanis Morisette's aging hippie mom.
She's definitely pleasant looking and everything but maybe just too much older than I am to be interesting yet.
If there's a 2027 and I'm alive in it, I'll probably think that's a picture of an attractive woman by then, sure.
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Ehhhh, I dunno.
Maybe I'm just still kind of too young but... she kind of looks like Alanis Morisette's aging hippie mom.
...and your point is?
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Ehhhh, I dunno.
Maybe I'm just still kind of too young but... she kind of looks like Alanis Morisette's aging hippie mom.
She's definitely pleasant looking and everything but maybe just too much older than I am to be interesting yet.
If there's a 2027 and I'm alive in it, I'll probably think that's a picture of an attractive woman by then, sure.
Whats the matter dude? Is she not wearing enough mens clothing for you?
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Whats the matter dude? Is she not wearing enough mens clothing for you?
Haha! A fag joke!
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I mean... I do not really find her attractive either. Sorry.
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She's not hot in a could-still-be-a-regular-on-television kinda way anymore, but she's definitely hot in a guys-wondering-how-the-hell-you-managed-THAT kinda way.
Which, for my money, is the better way anyway.
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Ah, I think she's just too scrawny lookin'.
A little extra fluff is actually treated better by age, really.
Scrawny ages fast.
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Haha! A fag joke!
I think he was talking about that in a post today. Someone was.
and yeah, i have t agree with lfm and inev.
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I'm seeing a definite generational trend developing here...
Paul, would you care to weigh in on the question?
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Well, I mean, it's not that I'm not old enough to remember her.
I remember her being cute back in the day, totally.
But... yeah, scrawny and tan just does not hold up to the years very well, in my libido's opinion.
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Paul, would you care to weigh in on the question?
I never have lived in a house with cable television in my life so I didn't develop a crush on Martha Quinn like so many of our generation. So I don't have that bias. As for what I like, I tend to go for women that say yes. You could say I'm a hole man (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07022007) in that regard. Beyond that, I typically like women with a little more, but more importantly I like the curves. In that picture that Jim linked to I saw some nice contours.
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I'm not Paul, but I got MTV from the early days, and I was down with the Martha Quinn-Nina Blackwood duality. Martha was the cute 'n' perky girl next door, Nina was the bad girl rocker chick. Each hot in her own way.
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Ehhhh, I dunno.
Maybe I'm just still kind of too young but... she kind of looks like Alanis Morisette's aging hippie mom.
She's definitely pleasant looking and everything but maybe just too much older than I am to be interesting yet.
If there's a 2027 and I'm alive in it, I'll probably think that's a picture of an attractive woman by then, sure.
"Shut the fuck up, Donny. You're out of your element."
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One of the guys from Steely Dan wrote a good balanced obit for the guy...
http://www.slate.com/id/2180162/ (http://www.slate.com/id/2180162/)
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I like it. Except for the part where he says Ike's band kind of invented ska... because, you know, that sound is like... JAMAICA. The accented-upbeat comes from their traditional music, is my understanding. The rest of ska is what came from the US-- the upbeat was theirs.
Although, you know, maybe "No More Doggin'" gave them the idea to mix mento with r&b.
Man, I like ska so much. Desmond Dekker is, I think, tied with Sam Cooke for "prettiest voice I have ever heard."
(for samples, compare "Israelites" and "A Change Gonna Come")
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7193080.stm
What do you know, he died of a cocaine overdose.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7193080.stm
What do you know, he died of a cocaine overdose.
That's rock and roll baby!
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Any time something like this comes up, Dr. Rockso pops into my head.
Thanks, Dr. Rockso.
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"All I know is... I'm Doctor Rockso, the Rock N Roll Clown... and I USED to do cocaine!"
Fuckin'. Genius.
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I used to drugs. I still do, but I used to, too.
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I gave you a can for that movie site in today im..., then it sucked, but you earned your can now.
Oh yeah, don't talk shit on tv-links yo.
I used to drugs. I still do, but I used to, too.
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I can't believe I read this whole thread and I STILL don't know if Ike Turner was punk.