The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => History => Topic started by: pmcd9 on December 18, 2008, 07:37:42 pm
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Honestly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPGcP8KDXYw)
I'm no fan of George Bush as anyone who post on this board knows, but I gotta say the boy showed some sweet moves dodging that shoe. Catlike reflexes. Hell, it might have been his finest act as president.
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I throw shoes all the time- my favorite form of grafiti it is.
You ever throw a roller blade on to a power line? Fun as shit.
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I like the Three Stooges version: http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/12/bush-shoe-toss.html
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Only time I saw Nine Inch Nails, the concert was called off two-thirds of the way in.
Someone threw a steel-toed boot from the moshpit, knocked the drummer out fuck*ng cold.
There is something about rock concerts in Albany that is disasterous.
Los Angeles and Syracuse, the two other areas where I've seen enough concerts to have a sense of things, are both pretty orderly situations.
But there's something about those Albanians.
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"Heh heh, I know kung fu."
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Hell, it might have been his finest act as president.
Without a doubt. I almost like the guy now.
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Shoes have an interesting place in the Muslim world. We're all wishing he'd flipped him the bird afterwards; as far as they're concerned, that's exactly what he did.
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So why do shoes mean that? Surely there must be a story behind this.
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Sock and Awe (http://sockandawe.com/)
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Well, I was told that to point the soles of your feet at anyone is to effectively say "you are beneath me, I am your master, etc."
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_tossing_in_the_Arab_world) is only slightly helpful here, mostly focusing on the recent event.
Edited to fix linkage.
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I thought it was more like "here is the thing that I would use to walk through shit, I am basically shaming you by showing you shit".
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You are supposed to take off your shoes when entering a mosque as well, which makes perfect sense to me. I don't pretend to understand a lot about any organized religion, especially Islam, but anything that suggests taking off your shoes is aight by this guy.
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Sock and Awe (http://sockandawe.com/)
God, I love the internet.
I guess if shoes are too dirty to take into a mosque, that is at least some kind of generalization. Although I have never heard of a shoe-throwing tradition in Japan, where they even take their shoes off to go into their own houses.
Seems like an awesome commitment to have to walk home without shoes, afterwards.
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I like the Three Stooges version: http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/12/bush-shoe-toss.html
Yes! The best part is the other shmo standing next to Bush. His confused expression fits perfectly.
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LFM and leppy are pretty much exactly right.
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Only time I saw Nine Inch Nails, the concert was called off two-thirds of the way in.
I have a friend who claims he hit Trent Reznor square in the chest with a copy of Catcher in the Rye. I call bullshit, but I'm pretty certain he actually threw it.
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On topic: Slate's Explainer (http://www.slate.com/id/2206749/) on the issue of show throwing.
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I have a friend who claims he hit Trent Reznor square in the chest with a copy of Catcher in the Rye.
...why?
I mean, you throw stuff at rock stars, that part I understand.
But why "Catcher in the Rye"? Some kind of complex statement about John Lennon or "Field of Dreams" or... just the only book at hand?
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I mean, you throw stuff at rock stars, that part I understand.
Wait, really? People do this?
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Nearly every concert I've ever been to that is of Loud Music, many assholes in the crowd decide that it is rad and edgy to throw stuff at the performers, because hurting each other and being violent is Metal. I dunno. People also slamdance until they bleed out the mouth at such shows and big guys like me can only serve as human walls between them and... like... the younger people and small women and such who they could accidentally seriously hurt without us blocking them off.
It's not logical, of course, but it is a thing and is understood as a thing.
But "Catcher In The Rye" seems a lot more specific than general Throwing Stuff Is Metal idiocy.
The only Loud Music concerts I've been to where nothing was thrown? Both Guns N Roses shows.
Axl's love of leaving at the drop of a hat scared the hell out of them, not wanting to give him an excuse to leave, I guess.
That dude is just two steps ahead, I tell ya.
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We were 15. It was probably marijuana that made him do it.
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Marijuana makes a dude throw THE young-adult novel of disaffection... the Harry Potter of young Roast Beef-to-bes... and the central conceit in the CIA's cover story for why their sleeper agent was "motivated" to murder John Lennon at a rock star? I dunno. That's much more powerful weed than I'VE ever encountered.
What was it? That long rumoured Vancouver Symbolic?
I mean, seriously. Ask the dude why that book specifically, if you get the chance.
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What was it? That long rumoured Vancouver Symbolic?
Awesome.
I'll ask him. We're still in touch.
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I remember when we went to concerts to listen to music.
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I've never thrown a shoe at a concert. That would be fuck*ng stupid. One time Supergrass threw me a drum stick, but I think I've already said that. Paul, you were there (but not then, part of the reason the threw the stick).
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You're talking about when they opened for Radiohead? I missed Supergrass due to lateness.
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The last time anyone threw anything when I was at a gig it was a festive reindeer-antler headband for the oboe player to wear while he performed a special dance for the amusement of all.
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At Barenaked Ladies concerts people used to always through mac and cheese (Kraft dinner) at the stage. Now they set up food bank donation boxes on by the ticket takers and kick out anybody caught with boxes of it beyond that point.
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It is one thing to throw soft things like underwear, or the stuffed animals they throw at figure skaters, but it seems stupid to throw hard objects at people to show you admire them.
Was it considered gauche to throw brands of mac and cheese other than Kraft at a Bare Naked Ladies concert?
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It is one thing to throw soft things like underwear, or the stuffed animals they throw at figure skaters, but it seems stupid to throw hard objects at people to show you admire them.
Was it considered gauche to throw brands of mac and cheese other than Kraft at a Bare Naked Ladies concert?
Good question. Maybe in Canada all instant mac & cheese is called Kraft dinner. Like in parts of the south all sodas are called Coke even if it's like diet grape store brand.
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Christ on a pogo stick you honkeys are funny
Am I the only Middle Easterner here? Do I have to bust out the brown-people mojo?
Pointing your feet or throwing your shoe at someone is considered rude because it is considered rude. There is no super secret symbolism ("I walk on shit, therefore you are shit!" or "I stand on the shoe and the shoe hits you therefore by the transitive law I stand on you!") If there was a super secret symbolism, it has been lost in the mists of time.
Basically, the analogue is like chewing with your mouth open. It is rude and disrespectful. No one goes around trying to trace the lineage of why it is disrespectful ("I chew this food, and by showing you the food, I symbolically chew on your hopes and dreams! Gnash gnash!") It's just something you Don't Do.
Please stop trying to make all us camel jockeys look like those aliens from Star Trek: TNG who could only communicate in metaphor. While Darmok and Gilaad at Tanagra is great and all, sometimes something is rude just because.
Here: you want a reason? I'll give a reason. Throwing anything at anyone, unsolicited, is rude because it is a physical threat. And shoes are generally nastier than, say, bouquets. Boom. There's your fuckin' symbolism.
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The last time anyone threw anything when I was at a gig it was a festive reindeer-antler headband for the oboe player to wear while he performed a special dance for the amusement of all.
A dancing oboe player can only be made more awesome by antlers.
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When I saw Soundgarden, they got pissed off because someone threw a golf ball at them. "Is this a big golf town?" Chris Cornell asked. The bass player suggested that if we saw anyone throwing anything, that we "punch them in the fuckin' face."
At a Southern Culture on the Skids show, they invited girls up on stage to dance and eat fried chicken during "Eight Piece Box." One young lady attempted to throw a piece of fried chicken at her boyfriend, but missed--I almost caught it, but it clanked off my hand as if I was a bad outfielder.
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"Is this a big golf town?" Chris Cornell asked.
Way better out of context.
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Yeah, I have never been at a concert where people threw things.
Thinking about it, I have had a lot more things thrown AT me at concerts.
Also: I, too have been wondering why there seems to be so much question on the news of "why is it rude to throw your shoes at someone?" as if we wouldn't think that was rude here.
Although I do think, if someone threw their shoes at me I would be more confused than saying "YOU DOG, YOU HAVE INSULTED MY BLOOD AND YOU MUST PAY THE PRICE, I DEMAND MY SATISFACTION!"
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Throwing anything at anyone, unsolicited, is rude because it is a physical threat.
Well, this is just not true. People throw bouquets at weddings, and stuffed animals at figure skaters, and boxed macaroni at bare naked ladies.
Anyway, things that are 'just because' now, can still have histories. Although granted, sometimes they are not interesting histories, like how real word etymologies are rarely as interesting as the ones that people have made up.
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OK, I was mistaken. It was Franny and Zooey. I really don't think there was a reason, other than my friend was obsessed with the book and Trent. Maybe he had a love/hate relationship with Reznor and Salinger but now couldn't give a fuck about either. Also, LSD may have been involved.
I saw L7 years ago at Bumbershoot and the crowd was throwing ... lemons? water bottles? ... it was years ago. And at Sasquatch a couple of years ago if you'd buy a water bottle they'd take the cap. I asked if it was just so it made it hard for us to refill the bottle at fountains and carry them around (because Christ they were expensive) and they assured me it was for the safety of the performers. Also, a friend told me that at a Green Day show fans pelted the band with lemons, but instead of stopping the show, they just threw them back.
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People throw bouquets at weddings,
I know people who would consider that a physical threat.
Full props to li'l B though, he dodged those shoes like a pro. I laughed when I heard the thrower was being questioned though, as if he's part of a well trained and funded group and this is just the start of a series of shoe based attacks.
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I figured he threw his shoes because it was the heaviest thing he was allowed to bring into the press room. Sorry fella but you're going to have to leave the brick outside.
I don't know why the press want to explore the symbolism of shoes and feet in regards to this story. Perhaps they want to give the impression to the American public that the reporter was conducting a sophisticated well thought out and articulate protest. By tagging the President with a shoe he was sending a message that will resonate throughout the Muslim world. Isn't that preferable to this was just another crazy sand nigger pulling some shit?
More likely though they had just run out of things to say because they've given a whole lot of attention to a story with very little actual content.
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The news media? Our news media?
No way.
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Now I want a computer game where I can throw macaroni and cheese at the president.
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Now I want a computer game where I can throw macaroni and cheese at the president.
Well, now that you're a web genius, you can get cracking on that. Right after you finish your article for Jan 5th of course.
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But I don't know how to make things move! That's magic.
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But I don't know how to make things move! That's magic.
No, that's flash.
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Basically, the analogue is like chewing with your mouth open. It is rude and disrespectful. No one goes around trying to trace the lineage of why it is disrespectful ("I chew this food, and by showing you the food, I symbolically chew on your hopes and dreams! Gnash gnash!") It's just something you Don't Do.
Chewing with you mouth open is rude because half chewed up food is gross looking. Who wants to see that?
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I have been thinking about this, and I think Bobby is wrong that there is nothing to explain, although I think he is right that trying to explain it in such detail is foolish.
Let's say the president of Iraq came to the US, and a reporter from the New York Times threw something at him.
If the reporter threw a candy bar because that was what she happened to have in her purse, there would be nothing to say about the significance of the object. If instead she hit him with a cream pie, then, there would be something for the Iraqi news to explain to the Iraqis, which is that throwing a cream pie at a person is something that regularly happens in American slapstick comedy. It has some cultural significance although it would probably be foolish to try to give a deep explanation of exactly what it means.
My understanding is that that reporter's throwing of shoes is more like throwing a cream pie than a candy bar.
So, Bobby, is that wrong?
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I have been thinking about this, and I think Bobby is wrong that there is nothing to explain, although I think he is right that trying to explain it in such detail is foolish.
Let's say the president of Iraq came to the US, and a reporter from the New York Times threw something at him.
If the reporter threw a candy bar because that was what she happened to have in her purse, there would be nothing to say about the significance of the object. If instead she hit him with a cream pie, then, there would be something for the Iraqi news to explain to the Iraqis, which is that throwing a cream pie at a person is something that regularly happens in American slapstick comedy. It has some cultural significance although it would probably be foolish to try to give a deep explanation of exactly what it means.
My understanding is that that reporter's throwing of shoes is more like throwing a cream pie than a candy bar.
So, Bobby, is that wrong?
I really think it's being overthought (a sentiment echoed by various middle eastern friends of mine as well). Basically, throwing a shoe is like throwing a rock or a paperweight or a rotten egg. It's an expression of contempt. There is no special role for the throwing of shoes. Probably some overly zealous sociology major read somewhere some comment about how pointing the soles of the feet at someone is rude and therefore manufactured this special significance of the shoe, Throwing the shoe has no major significance because I don't think it even happens enough to merit being noticed.
Like this article?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7783325.stm
33% exaggeration, 33% really trying to reach for a point, 33% bullshit, 1% truth.
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Hmm, well, would it be more like, if an American reporter threw a dirty tissue that she found in her purse, instead of the candy bar? No special precedents like the cream pie, but it's kind of icky. More than a paperweight or a rock.
That's not the best example because I guess a dirty tissue would be icky in any country, but I think there are places where tissues (a wasteful use of resources compared to handkerchiefs, say) are not as common, so it was the best I could come up with.
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Hmm, well, would it be more like, if an American reporter threw a dirty tissue that she found in her purse, instead of the candy bar? No special precedents like the cream pie, but it's kind of icky. More than a paperweight or a rock.
That's not the best example because I guess a dirty tissue would be icky in any country, but I think there are places where tissues (a wasteful use of resources compared to handkerchiefs, say) are not as common, so it was the best I could come up with.
It would be like if the news agencies did an in-depth investigation on the Russian Cultural Significance of Shoes after seeing Nikita Khrushchev banging his on the lectern at the U.N. Which there really isn't, shoes are sort of universally icky everywhere. it's just what he happened to have handy .
But the Mainstream Media treats Middle Easterners like the Fremen: a strange desert people who communicate in their strange language and have their great rituals and fearing the great Shoe-Worm, Nike Air-Hulud.
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Am I the onl only one who was immediately reminded by the time they tore down the statue of Saddam and started hitting it with their shoes?
(http://kholamon.tripod.com/sh/Image_88.jpg)(http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/images/saddamshoes.jpg)(http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aa7aUK2dZ1F7/610x.jpg)
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39079000/jpg/_39079309_shoe.jpg)
This guy is even using a shoe to hit a picture of saddam. Note using the shoe as opposed to just stepping on it or spitting on it or burning it or any list of things one can do to a statue or picture other than throw a shoe. Clearly the shoe has a meaning deeper than "it was just what he had with him and everyone hates to have shoes thrown at them"
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Am I the onl only one who was immediately reminded by the time they tore down the statue of Saddam and started hitting it with their shoes?
(http://kholamon.tripod.com/sh/Image_88.jpg)(http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/images/saddamshoes.jpg)(http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aa7aUK2dZ1F7/610x.jpg)
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39079000/jpg/_39079309_shoe.jpg)
This guy is even using a shoe to hit a picture of saddam. Note using the shoe as opposed to just stepping on it or spitting on it or burning it or any list of things one can do to a statue or picture other than throw a shoe. Clearly the shoe has a meaning deeper than "it was just what he had with him and everyone hates to have shoes thrown at them"
Yeah, shoes are nasty. There's no symbolism behind it though. It's just nasty. ANd yeah that is what people have with them.
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Are there any moments in any other culture that were marked by beating things with shoes? Every other culture has shoes and things they hate.
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Are there any moments in any other culture that were marked by beating things with shoes? Every other culture has shoes and things they hate.
see also: nikita krushchev
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He hated the lectern and wished to disgrace it? I dont get it.
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But the Mainstream Media treats Middle Easterners like the Fremen: a strange desert people who communicate in their strange language and have their great rituals and fearing the great Shoe-Worm, Nike Air-Hulud.
You mean they're not?
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He hated the lectern? I dont get it.
He was pretty angry at the west. I mean, these were accompanied with the words "WE WILL BURY YOU."
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You mean they're not?
In retrospect, Shoe-Hulud would have been funnier, but I just woke up.
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So in the face of evidence that hitting someone with shoes carries special significance for the Iraqi culture, you just shake your head and say 'no, that doesn't mean anything, everyone hates shoes so therefore there is no way it has special meaning to them, even though the evidence says it does. It cannot be the case that both everyone hates shoes and it carries a more relevant message to people in another culture. My own conclusions about shoes mean more than what has happened in reality'
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So in the face of evidence that hitting someone with shoes carries special significance for the Iraqi culture, you just shake your head and say 'no, that doesn't mean anything, everyone hates shoes so therefore there is no way it has special meaning to them, even though the evidence says it does. It cannot be the case that both everyone hates shoes and it carries a more relevant message to people in another culture. My own conclusions about shoes mean more than what has happened in reality'
Your "evidence" is faulty. Show me it wasn't staged. Show me that the reason they are using shoes isn't simply because they have no other objects with which to use as makeshift weapons (which is quite likely, as an occupying force would work to disarm the populace). [citation needed]
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So, did middle eastern people really HATE Ed Sullivan or what?
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So, did middle eastern people really HATE Ed Sullivan or what?
First and foremost, middle eastern people hate each other.
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That is one way in which they are definitely not special, of course. Everyone fights with their neighbors (See India and Pakistan, English and Irish, etc) because it is more efficient. You don't get nearly as many chances to indulge in hating someone halfway across the world, and it is so much more expensive to get there to throw things at them.
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This is pretty much why I've always thought we should spend our Persian Gulf military budget on developing alternatives to oil - so we can basically call all of them into a room, say "We don't need you anymore, so we don't care what you do to each other from here on out. Peace!", and leave.
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Not everyone thinks shoes are nasty. NSFW (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3116/3081471741_941d13d769_b.jpg)
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Yeah, I mean.
If I saw a bunch of Americans hitting something with their shoes, I would think there was something going on that I wasn't getting.
...probably some kind of internet meme.
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All Your Shoes Are Belong To Us
LOLshoes
RickSho'd
Mr. T Ate My Shoes
One Girl, Two Shoes
ShuRLY?
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culturally significant insult: ur doin it wrong
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(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/49/053picsyy3.jpg)
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actually, thinking about it, the hitting-saddam's-statue-with-shoes seems to require explanation more than "this guy got mad at Bush and threw shoes at him" does.
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it is so much more expensive to get there to throw things at them.
We cannot allow a shoe gap!
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That is one way in which they are definitely not special, of course. Everyone fights with their neighbors (See India and Pakistan, English and Irish, etc) because it is more efficient. You don't get nearly as many chances to indulge in hating someone halfway across the world, and it is so much more expensive to get there to throw things at them.
Well, plus how many chances do people you never see or interact with get to piss you off? Neighbors get way more chances to get on each others' nerves. The closer "they" get without being "one of us", the more "they" piss "us" off.
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This thread is so laced with inaccuracies such that I can no longer hold my tongue. You may think me a heel for not marching instep with the rest of you, but the brogues in the media have pumped you full of misinformation. I know in my sole that using cultural insensitivity as a wedge issue is simply sandalous.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Michael_Jordan.jpg)
Obama's Secretary of Defense?
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Oh for fuck's sake Paul. Jesus.
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I have flip-flopped on this issue but now concur with August. At least a pair of you deserve to get the boot.
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You dumb loafers are now all my arch enemies. As such, I want to pointe out the fact that I will stop at nothing to sneaker round and sabotage you and clog your infrastructure. You can capture me and pump me for information, but you'll never break me in fact, i'll just slingback vitriol and venom worse than a moccasin at you.
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Miles, you have only yourself to blame.
Still.
Damn.
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I can't believe I missed how wonderful this thread became.
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I can't believe I missed how wonderful this thread became.
FTFY