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[wombat]

I have been thinking about this, and I think Bobby is wrong that there is nothing to explain, although I think he is right that trying to explain it in such detail is foolish.

Let's say the president of Iraq came to the US, and a reporter from the New York Times threw something at him.

If the reporter threw a candy bar because that was what she happened to have in her purse, there would be nothing to say about the significance of the object. If instead she hit him with a cream pie, then, there would be something for the Iraqi news to explain to the Iraqis, which is that throwing a cream pie at a person is something that regularly happens in American slapstick comedy. It has some cultural significance although it would probably be foolish to try to give a deep explanation of exactly what it means.

My understanding is that that reporter's throwing of shoes is more like throwing a cream pie than a candy bar.

So, Bobby, is that wrong?

[Bobby Isosceles]

I have been thinking about this, and I think Bobby is wrong that there is nothing to explain, although I think he is right that trying to explain it in such detail is foolish.

Let's say the president of Iraq came to the US, and a reporter from the New York Times threw something at him.

If the reporter threw a candy bar because that was what she happened to have in her purse, there would be nothing to say about the significance of the object. If instead she hit him with a cream pie, then, there would be something for the Iraqi news to explain to the Iraqis, which is that throwing a cream pie at a person is something that regularly happens in American slapstick comedy. It has some cultural significance although it would probably be foolish to try to give a deep explanation of exactly what it means.

My understanding is that that reporter's throwing of shoes is more like throwing a cream pie than a candy bar.

So, Bobby, is that wrong?

I really think it's being overthought (a sentiment echoed by various middle eastern friends of mine as well). Basically, throwing a shoe is like throwing a rock or a paperweight or a rotten egg. It's an expression of contempt. There is no special role for the throwing of shoes. Probably some overly zealous sociology major read somewhere some comment about how pointing the soles of the feet at someone is rude and therefore manufactured this special significance of the shoe, Throwing the shoe has no major significance because I don't think it even happens enough to merit being noticed.

Like this article?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7783325.stm

33% exaggeration, 33% really trying to reach for a point, 33% bullshit, 1% truth.

[wombat]

Hmm, well, would it be more like, if an American reporter threw a dirty tissue that she found in her purse, instead of the candy bar? No special precedents like the cream pie, but it's kind of icky. More than a paperweight or a rock.

That's not the best example because I guess a dirty tissue would be icky in any country, but I think there are places where tissues (a wasteful use of resources compared to handkerchiefs, say) are not as common, so it was the best I could come up with.

[Bobby Isosceles]

Hmm, well, would it be more like, if an American reporter threw a dirty tissue that she found in her purse, instead of the candy bar? No special precedents like the cream pie, but it's kind of icky. More than a paperweight or a rock.

That's not the best example because I guess a dirty tissue would be icky in any country, but I think there are places where tissues (a wasteful use of resources compared to handkerchiefs, say) are not as common, so it was the best I could come up with.

It would be like if the news agencies did an in-depth investigation on the Russian Cultural Significance of Shoes after seeing Nikita Khrushchev banging his on the lectern at the U.N. Which there really isn't, shoes are sort of universally icky everywhere. it's just what he happened to have handy .


But the Mainstream Media treats Middle Easterners like the Fremen: a strange desert people who communicate in their strange language and have their great rituals and fearing the great Shoe-Worm, Nike Air-Hulud.

[Arachno-capitalist]

Am I the onl only one who was immediately reminded by the time they tore down the statue of Saddam and started hitting it with their shoes?


This guy is even using a shoe to hit a picture of saddam. Note using the shoe as opposed to just stepping on it or spitting on it or burning it or any list of things one can do to a statue or picture other than throw a shoe. Clearly the shoe has a meaning deeper than "it was just what he had with him and everyone hates to have shoes thrown at them"

[Bobby Isosceles]

Am I the onl only one who was immediately reminded by the time they tore down the statue of Saddam and started hitting it with their shoes?


This guy is even using a shoe to hit a picture of saddam. Note using the shoe as opposed to just stepping on it or spitting on it or burning it or any list of things one can do to a statue or picture other than throw a shoe. Clearly the shoe has a meaning deeper than "it was just what he had with him and everyone hates to have shoes thrown at them"

Yeah, shoes are nasty. There's no symbolism behind it though. It's just nasty. ANd yeah that is what people have with them.

[Arachno-capitalist]

Are there any moments in any other culture that were marked by beating things with shoes? Every other culture has shoes and things they hate.

[Bobby Isosceles]

Are there any moments in any other culture that were marked by beating things with shoes? Every other culture has shoes and things they hate.

see also: nikita krushchev

[Arachno-capitalist]

He hated the lectern and wished to disgrace it? I dont get it.

[Golfhaus]

But the Mainstream Media treats Middle Easterners like the Fremen: a strange desert people who communicate in their strange language and have their great rituals and fearing the great Shoe-Worm, Nike Air-Hulud.

You mean they're not?

[Bobby Isosceles]

He hated the lectern? I dont get it.

He was pretty angry at the west. I mean, these were accompanied with the words "WE WILL BURY YOU."

[Bobby Isosceles]

You mean they're not?

In retrospect, Shoe-Hulud would have been funnier, but I just woke up.

[Arachno-capitalist]

So in the face of evidence that hitting someone with shoes carries special significance for the Iraqi culture, you just shake your head and say 'no, that doesn't mean anything, everyone hates shoes so therefore there is no way it has special meaning to them, even though the evidence says it does. It cannot be the case that both everyone hates shoes and it carries a more relevant message to people in another culture. My own conclusions about shoes mean more than what has happened in reality'

[Bobby Isosceles]

So in the face of evidence that hitting someone with shoes carries special significance for the Iraqi culture, you just shake your head and say 'no, that doesn't mean anything, everyone hates shoes so therefore there is no way it has special meaning to them, even though the evidence says it does. It cannot be the case that both everyone hates shoes and it carries a more relevant message to people in another culture. My own conclusions about shoes mean more than what has happened in reality'

Your "evidence" is faulty. Show me it wasn't staged. Show me that the reason they are using shoes isn't simply because they have no other objects with which to use as makeshift weapons (which is quite likely, as an occupying force would work to disarm the populace). [citation needed]

[AugustWest]

So, did middle eastern people really HATE Ed Sullivan or what?