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[arkabee]

 vote for the Repubicans or my husband died in vain?  Fuck you.

did you see that soundbite from the Veep Cheney the other day wherein he heavily alludes that if you don't vote for bush in this election you are pretty much going to be responsible for more terror attacks?

tasty!

[jough]

I just can't believe I voted for these fucks.

I'm sorry.  I'm so so sorry.

And now Bush is ahead in the polls by 12 points, proving once again to the world that Americans are really fuck*ng stupid.

I mean, show of hands: does anyone think the country is better off now than we were four years ago?  Does anyone not know at least five people who have been unemployed for longer than several months?  Does anyone NOT think Bush is a moron?

C'mon, don't be afraid.  If you really support Bush, feel free to deny any of the above questions.

I mean, fuck, I'm a Republican but there's only so much punishment I'm willing to take for my party before the left-wing alternative starts to look better.

[arkabee]

I mean, show of hands: does anyone think the country is better off now than we were four years ago?  Does anyone not know at least five people who have been unemployed for longer than several months?  Does anyone NOT think Bush is a moron?

i saw on Good Morning America this morning, George Snuffalupagus said that Bush's approval rating is over 50%.  there was some graphic on the screen, but it was early, i think it said something like "people feel safer" or something.  wtf???

to answer your questions:
no i think it's worse,
no i do not know anyone, personally, unemployed.  i know there are many, since the Fabrics plant closed, etc, etc.
no i do think bush is a moron, or yes i think bush is a moron?

[Va]

Left wing, right wing, they're just the two branches of the Boot on Your Neck Party.  Stop looking to the State for solutions to your problems.  As Robert LeFevre said, government is a disease masquerading as it's own cure.  Reject coercion.

[CortJstr]

Left wing, right wing, they're just the two branches of the Boot on Your Neck Party.  Stop looking to the State for solutions to your problems.  As Robert LeFevre said, government is a disease masquerading as it's own cure.  Reject coercion.

Says the person who works at a military base.

[Va]

Says the person who works at a military base.

Indeed.  I used to be in the Air Force, too.  There's nothing like working for the government to foster complete and total contempt for it.  It's also oddly comforting to know how complete and pervasive the incompetence of the government is.

[arkabee]

Left wing, right wing, they're just the two branches of the Boot on Your Neck Party.  Stop looking to the State for solutions to your problems.  As Robert LeFevre said, government is a disease masquerading as it's own cure.  Reject coercion.

while i agree with what you are saying, i'm confused as to the context in which you are saying it.

If the state is made up of, or is in its entirety, the Boot on Your Neck Party, then the state would be a problem to anyone thinking that having "The Boot on Your Neck" is a problem.

And i am not to look to the state for a solution to my problems.

So, to follow your analogies, if i am lying in the street, with someone standing above me with his/her boot upon my neck, i am not supposed to appeal to the one with the boot upon my neck to cease, but to either "look within myself" for a solution, or am i to appeal to a random passerby to do so?

I firmly believe in personal responsibility, i _am_ responsible for myself.  But i am NOT RESPONSIBLE for the inequities done by others, nor do i feel as though it is proper to say to me "deal with it yourself" when someone is punching me in the face for no reason.  In a case such as that, i feel it WAS the responsibility of the puncher to be responsible and not punch someone in the face for no reason, but obviously they are not.

Anarchy is great when everyone is playing nice, but the minute a bully shows up and starts organizing other bullies, everyone else is fucked because they are all sitting around chanting "good fences make good neighbors, i won't mess with you if you don't mess with me" and refusing to organize with anyone else to stop the bullies from messing with them.

[Va]

So, to follow your analogies, if i am lying in the street, with someone standing above me with his/her boot upon my neck, i am not supposed to appeal to the one with the boot upon my neck to cease, but to either "look within myself" for a solution, or am i to appeal to a random passerby to do so?

What good would appealing to the person with the boot on your neck do?  If they did not want their boot on your neck, they would not have put it there in the first place.  You must take action to induce them to remove their boot from your neck, by, say, shooting them in the nuts.  Yes, asking a passerby with a bootless neck would also be a possible course of action.  Any given problem has an infinite number of possible solutions, of varying efficacy.  Don't confuse the issue by introducing false dichotomies.

I firmly believe in personal responsibility, i _am_ responsible for myself.  But i am NOT RESPONSIBLE for the inequities done by others, nor do i feel as though it is proper to say to me "deal with it yourself" when someone is punching me in the face for no reason.  In a case such as that, i feel it WAS the responsibility of the puncher to be responsible and not punch someone in the face for no reason, but obviously they are not.

As you say, you are not responsible for the actions of others, only for your own actions.  If someone is punching you in the face, you must take action to make the face-punching cease, either by removing your face from the range of their fist, or providing them with a good reason to stop punching you in the face, such as shooting them in the nuts.

Anarchy is great when everyone is playing nice, but the minute a bully shows up and starts organizing other bullies, everyone else is fucked because they are all sitting around chanting "good fences make good neighbors, i won't mess with you if you don't mess with me" and refusing to organize with anyone else to stop the bullies from messing with them.

That's just bullshit, arkabee.  People have always worked together to defend themselves and their friends, and always will.  My contention is merely that people do not have to be coerced into doing what is truly in their self-interest.  No person can really be trusted with the amount of power that even the lowest level of government gives to individuals.

[arkabee]

What good would appealing to the person with the boot on your neck do?  If they did not want their boot on your neck, they would not have put it there in the first place.  You must take action to induce them to remove their boot from your neck, by, say, shooting them in the nuts.  Yes, asking a passerby with a bootless neck would also be a possible course of action.  Any given problem has an infinite number of possible solutions, of varying efficacy.  Don't confuse the issue by introducing false dichotomies.

i do not see the dichotomy as false.  i have two options:  do it myself, or do it with others.

if i am unable to achieve an efficacious solution with the one, i am left to find efficacity within the other.

we do not know why they have their boot on my neck.  _my_ first course of action is to appeal to them.  perhaps they have mistaken me for someone else?  again, i don't know why their boot is on my neck.

_i_ must take action. ok. i do not have a gun.  nor do i have any "combat"/"martial arts" training to kung fu them to get the boot off my neck.  1- i try and find out why they are doing it / try to convince them to stop.  2- vainly struggle to get out from under the boot.  most likely i will fail at struggling, but it is possible and i must attempt it.  3- unable to get out from under the boot on my own, i must turn to an outside entity for assistance.

As you say, you are not responsible for the actions of others, only for your own actions.  If someone is punching you in the face, you must take action to make the face-punching cease, either by removing your face from the range of their fist, or providing them with a good reason to stop punching you in the face, such as shooting them in the nuts.

i agree.  and since i do not have a gun, nor do i have the martial prowess, i offer upon thee an alternative effacacious solution: i subscribe myself to a system of law wherein actions such as putting a boot on my neck as stated in this example would be counter to the law, and further agree to the enforcement of these laws through use of a force of individuals making up an entity to protect and to serve me and others who also subscribe to this system.

That's just bullshit, arkabee.  

well, if you wish to view my thoughts on the system of anarchy as "bullshit", then so be it.  i guess it doesn't need to be said that i would disagree with your assessment of my opinion on the subject...

People have always worked together to defend themselves and their friends, and always will.

mmmmm.  indeed.  and so it comes a time when we friends have to decide what to do about the people we don't quite so much like...

i tend to agree with the "i disagree with what you say but support your right to say it" mentality, or "i might not like you but as long as you play nice i guess we can stay on the same team", etc.   that way, you end up with more people in your group [country, culture, etc] and are better suited at protecting yourself and your group.  

My contention is merely that people do not have to be coerced into doing what is truly in their self-interest.

i would have to say that i agree completely.
and myself, i would add "and by being coerced are more likely to disagree just out of sheer orneryness."

No person can really be trusted with the amount of power that even the lowest level of government gives to individuals.

i would have to disagree, even as cynical as i may be i do hold out some romantic hope that not _every_ _single_ _person_ is a complete asshead.

[jough]

Va, you obviously don't believe what you're saying or you wouldn't work for the government.  

Whether or not you choose to bite the hand that feeds you is immaterial.  But if you think that big goverment is part of the problem, as I do, then don't be a hypocrite, baby.  You're better than that.  Either quit your job or shut the fuck up.

I don't blame the goverment for my problems, but the current goverment has created greater obstacles than previous administrations have.  Yes, I control my own destiny, but I don't control everyone else's, and when jobs are shipped overseas and people are out of work they have less money to pay me.  So I suffer for decisions made by the Bush administration.  The shitty economy makes the lives of everyone EVERYONE living in the United States worse.  

I suppose your "solution" would be to suggest moving to a country that has a higher standard of living than the U.S. does, like any Scandinavian country, or Egypt or something.

Me, I choose to NOT throw my hands up and say "Deal with yourself, fuck everyone else" and I believe that if you don't like something you should CHANGE it, not ignore it.  If you keep backing away from problems eventually you'll be cornered and too weak to deal with them.  

fuck*ng slacker gen-xers like Va are part of the precipitate, not part of the solution.

[AlohaDawg]

What Jough said, with slightly less vitriol.

I work for the government. I serve the people, creating and delivering health programs and supporting the control of infectious diseases in ways readily visible and directly serving the public.

The Government necessarily provides services individuals cannot and private enterprise will not because there is no profit motive inherent in, say, assuring clean water, or wholesome food, or the control of syphilis or tuberculosis. Everyone benefits daily from a panoply of necessarily government provided services.

I don't feel like I'm a boot on anyone's neck and those of you who are completely BLIND to anything but the negative need to grow up and look around, and talk to those of us in careers of service with the abslolute knowledge that we will never get rich doing what we do.

[Va]

Okay, I'm just going to bow out of this conversation. I just quit writing for a libertarian/anarchist blog because I was bored to death with talking about this shit.

[jough]

<throwing up her hands> Okay, I'm just going to bow out of this conversation.

You should've done that a while ago.

[AugustWest]

Remember when we used talk about funny comics and music and stuff?  Remember those days?  Those were good days.

Geez A-Dawg, you sure don't talk like a Republican.

And Va, whether or not I agree with your position, it doesn't seem very pragmatic.  Radical change of our governmental system is not imminent (or even remotely likely).  Much as it sucks, we are given two choices.  Minimally different choices, perhaps.  I think there are some significant differences between the two alternatives this time, but I understand the similarities.

Is it right that we have to grit our teeth and choose between the lesser of two evils? No, absolutely not.  Could our system be improved?  Certainly.  Does this mean I should abdicate my responsibility of examining and choosing between the two evils?  No.

[V-Adore]

I don't normally agree with you on politics, AD, but thank you for your last post. I was trying to think of a succint defense of governmental services, and you gave it.

(Yes, bloated government is bad. I don't want government any bigger than it has to be. However, to create an ordered and humane society, government needs to be there and provide services. Perhaps I don't enjoy quite as many freedoms as I would in a libertarian/anarchic society -- but my life benefits in a thousand ways from governmental programs, and to throw that all away just to avoid paying taxes or because "you should provide for yourself" seems shortsighted at the very least.)