Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ben-San]

As long as you don't spill into my personal space, like on an airplane or a bus or subway or movie theater and particularly if you don't have the attititude that you somehow have the absolute right to take up space that I paid for, I don't care. But when beefy flesh with that savory whiff of fermenting fold-sweat is pushed up against me, against my will and in my space, I get offended pretty quick.

Being a person of gravity is one thing but there are limits to what people should have to put up with.

So here's the thing about why a fat dude takes up some of the seat next to him on the bus: it is because he is very large. He is not able to, by an effort of will for your benefit, miraculously and abruptly become much smaller than he is. This is the amount of space he occupies. He is a large man who has someplace he needs to go.

I ride buses and trolleys, and, you know, I compress myself as best I can. I try to find a seat with an empty next to it, such that anyone who ends up next to me will have done so in the knowledge that they will be sitting next to a fat dude who is larger than he is allowed to be. If I cannot find an empty seat, and it is reasonably possible to do so (I have an old knee injury that acts up sometimes), I stand. Here is another thing about fat dudes: they have a lot of mass, and therefore a lot of momentum. This means that when the bus suddenly starts, stops, or turns, they experience a much greater centrifugal force than skinny dudes do. When a fat dude who is standing on a bus lurches to one side or the other, it is not because of his desire to get All Up Ins, or at least it is not necessarily so. It is because a much greater amount of force is being exerted on him laterally than on you. I am sure that some fat dudes are assholes but a lot of us are just guys who are trying to ride the bus.

If you are still annoyed over this, then just remind yourself that vengeance will be had the next time that dude has to get on a plane and the armrests on his seat are closer together than the width of his pelvic bone. Or the next time he is on a long Greyhound-type bus ride and the door of the bathroom is smaller than he is. Or the next time anything at all falls off a shelf in the same room that he is in, because fat dudes are always clumsy and he is therefore the one who swung his fat belly like a medieval flail to knock things off shelves.

[jough]

It is not easy in this society being either a man of gravity or a man who is many storied (tall).

Most public places seem to be designed for very very small people.  Public toilets are SO LOW to the ground, and this often includes urinals.  I often have to squat when I use a public mens so I don't piss on TOP of the tiny urinal, or else take the trouser snake all the way out, rather than just let him poke out of the fly, to extend down to the part that is open and ready to accept pee.

In diners they often have booths and tables that are bolted to things and thus cannot be moved, and waitresses, who are not blind as far as I can tell, think that is the appropriate place to seat me.  In some places they also have tables, but the tables also have little narrow armrests which if I'm lucky will ONLY cut into the sides of my legs and kidneys while I try to hold my breath and eat.  But usually the chairs simply do not work for me at all, in which case I get to stand there while everyone else is seated and the waitress tries to find a chair without arms.

Movie theatres suck for so many reasons, but little seats are part of it.  Also, it is sometimes inconvenient to not be able to sit in stadium seats and to have to stand the length of a baseball game, especially with bad knees or a bad back, because men of gravity put a lot of pressure on these weak joints.

Also, men of gravity cannot eat anything in public without people judging, like "Oh look, the fat guy is eating again" even if it is a salad and the man in question has not eaten anything all day and it is dinner time.  This is fun at parties, where men of gravity will go home hungry even though there was plenty of food for everyone else because he doesn't want to have to eat in front of the skinnier folk who lack compassion in their souls.

[wombat]

Most public places seem to be designed for very very small people. 

As a very small person, I beg to differ.  But they are clearly designed for medium people who are not like either of us.

And let's everyone make a New Year's resolution not to judge what other people eat, regardless of their size or their inexplicable dislike of See's candies.

[AlohaDawg]

It takes a high level of personal gravity to trigger my ire and in the vast majority of cases, the high level of gravity is due to lifestyle and is both preventable and reversible.
Very few people have a pelvis as wide as the armrests on a plane, the problem is the extra tissue.And I have no patience at all for the 'fat acceptance crowd' or the 'I'm being discriminated against' crowd.

I'm above average size (not huge) and slightly above my ideal weight. I have never had a problem sitting anywhere. Even in Hawaii where I'm actually WAY above average size. I think if people maintain a healthy BMI there generally isn't an issue - and very little of the obesity in the US is beyond the control of the patient. In the vast majority of cases, lifestyle changes can make a huge difference. The costs of obesity in the US are really becoming extremely significant, both on the medical and social side. Some major insurers are even considering health plans involving screening and monitoring of lifestyle and health factors to maintain low premium costs - so you pay for your risks.

I think that's a tremendous idea and could be the best thing to motivate prople toward healthier and more active lifestyles.

[jough]

AD, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Do you shout at people in a mental institution to "just stop being crazy" or expect people with Parkinson's to stop shaking, because whether they shake or not is something that is within the control of the patient?

The thing about something like alcoholism is that people *can* just stop drinking.  I mean, physically.  But to cut out food usually results in sickness and death.

[V-Adore]

It takes a high level of personal gravity to trigger my ire and in the vast majority of cases, the high level of gravity is due to lifestyle and is both preventable and reversible.

I am basically reading this as "if you are fat, I have the right to be mad at you just for being near me in public spaces, and if I am mad at you, that means it's your fault. You should not in fact enter public spaces until you've slimmed down enough for my taste."

Very few people have a pelvis as wide as the armrests on a plane, the problem is the extra tissue.

Uh... I do. I am not carrying around that much extra pelvis tissue, and I'm just about at the limits of a plane seat. Also, for the record, many non-gravity-having people report discomfort in airline economy seating, which would indicate a different correlation to me than the one you seem to be assuming.

And I have no patience at all for the 'fat acceptance crowd' or the 'I'm being discriminated against' crowd.

So, if we're insulted based purely on our size or the fact that we're out in public (and not presumably locked in a basement with a treadmill and some lettuce), we should just take it?

Look, I'm not going to disagree with you: a lot of people in this country need to work on having healthier lifestyles. But I really don't think that refusing to treat fat people with dignity and shunning them for interacting in normative public ways sends the message "you should be engaging in a healthy lifestyle." If we treat obesity as a health problem, why exactly should sufferers of this particular health problem be abused when people with other publically-obvious health problems aren't? (People in wheelchairs often cause obstruction issues in public places as well, and yet it's reprehensible to suggest that they not be in the same public spaces as the rest of us.) Arguing that obesity is a health problem that needs greater public awareness and lifestyle changes, matched with the apparent opinion that fat people have actually done something morally wrong (because that's what shunning of this sort connotes in society, you know) is blatant hypocrisy.

Executive summary: fuck you.

[robot_roll_call]

Now that my name is up there in lights, and due to the fact that I started all this, I would just like to say that I apologize my offhand insensitive remark. It's easy to forget that weight discrimination hurts people's feelings. I had no idea it was such a hot button issue. I am cool with persons of gravity, and henceforth rude women will no longer be compared to livestock, but will merely be known as "rude women".

This board really is all about education.

[AlohaDawg]

I have a friend who weighed over 500 pounds and now he's lost 350 lbs. He did it because he knew he had to - that the weight was very unhealthy and he was going to die. He's the guy next to me on the plane.

He's a good friend and I'm really proud of him for what he's done for himself.

He represents to me the fact that for the vast majoirty of seriously overweight people, there is an option to lose the weight.

Jough, I eat every day and drink at least once a week. I am neither obese nor an alcoholic, and the suggestion that overweight people will die if they lose weight is senseless. No I don't go around yelling at blind people to see, or crazy people to not be crazy. I have, however, referred homeless people to shelters, battered women to programs, alcoholics to AA and etc. etc. The point is, a motivated person wanting to change their life/circumstances can and will - but they need tools and support. Eating and Exercise is absolutely within the control of most people with excess weight but like I say, tools and support are important. Just as they are in many disciplines of medical case managment and treatment.

"fat acceptance' and 'fat discrimination' are counter to getting people to understand that they have a condition that can and likely will seriously impact all aspects of their health. That's aside from the social stigmas that happen as well. If we can get people to quit alcohol after years of abuse, I think we can get people to adjust behaviors that lead to excess weight.

V - sorry you had to Fuck You me. It wasn't really something I was looking for, and also I think you read a lot into what I said (I can't connect  your quote of me and your statement, for instance) and if you took it personally, sorry. It certainly wasn't meant personally. As an aside, you and I both have the right to be angry or feel whatever we want in a public space. If I harass you about something or attack you personally, then a law has been broken. But people will feel any way that they feel.

[theinevitable]

#####_roll_call--
I think that this is the correct solution. The idea that saying that she is a "rude woman" could also be a complement (ie: these titties are the rudest!) makes it even more wonderful.

As a very thin man, I get the reverse response of large people. Everyone in the world constantly informs me that I don't eat enough, and/or that I'm a lucky bastard.
The thing is, I am trying to gain weight. I am trying very hard. The state of being scrawny is no longer appealing to me.
I am tired of people telling me that I have an eating disorder, or that I might fall into a crack in the floor. I realize that the fact that I don't have to try to be slender is upsetting to some people, but I don't see how that makes it their job to tell me when to eat.

I mean, I consider myself to be, in some ways, in the same place as People of Gravity. Part of my weight problem is genetic (ie: high metabolism, being a teenager, etc.) and part of it is probably psychological. I mean, on some level, I like being thin. I am overly anxious, and when I get anxious, I don't eat enough. I am extremely picky about food. I apparently don't have a very good internal clock, and so I don't have a set schedule for eating-- I don't eat until I'm hungry, and sometimes this means not eating as much as I should. So, I can either just say "oh, yeah, its my metabolism," or I can deal with the parts of it that I can control.

I can see what Alohadawg is, I think, trying to say. It isn't about being down on people who are Of Gravity, it's about helping them learn to be more healthy. I think that we all have to learn not to judge larger people, but, many of them need to learn to deal with their problems. I realize that this is genetic, cultural, etc. But so are many other problems which people can eventually overcome. he isnt' yelling at the people in the State Mental Institution to stop being crazy, he is... I dont' want to say "being a psychiatrist", but... something that involves helping them in a reasonable way. Let's say... alohadawg is like a candystriper.

The part that I can see as being insulting is the judging of large people when they eat. It's like when certain people say that everyone needs to "learn english". How do you know the mexican immigrant you see on the street sn't learning english? I mean, unless you see him again a year or so later, you'll never know. So, people just assume if they see someone speaking Spanish that they dont know english, and arent trying to learn it.
The same way, if I see a large person eating a cookie, I assume they're just a fat idiot. But how do I know this isn't their first cookie in a week? I don't. So I guess I'm a dick.

Yeah, ok.


Also: I think we can all get along, as long as we can all marvel at the following: I clicked reply, and a little red message came up saying "as you were reading this thread, another response was posted. you may want to review your response."

This made me glad deep inside.

[AlohaDawg]

I want to say that, sincerely, I wish you all the best of health and happiness and prosperity for '06 as well.

[V-Adore]

Now that my name is up there in lights, and due to the fact that I started all this, I would just like to say that I apologize my offhand insensitive remark. It's easy to forget that weight discrimination hurts people's feelings. I had no idea it was such a hot button issue. I am cool with persons of gravity, and henceforth rude women will no longer be compared to livestock, but will merely be known as "rude women".

Don't worry about it, man. I wasn't really concerned with weight discrimination; really, I'm just a fan of accuracy in insult, if that makes any sense. Your scorn for the woman was based on her rudeness (talking in a movie theater) and its compounded ignorance (asking a  mind-bogglingly stupid question in a movie theater), and given that you probably would have been just as annoyed by a supermodel doing it, why put it in terms of body size when you can put it in terms of "this utter imbecile" and suchlike? There are so many delightful insults based on stupidity that it seems a shame to use one for something entirely different.

Now, to attempt not to double-post...

I can see what Alohadawg is, I think, trying to say. It isn't about being down on people who are Of Gravity, it's about helping them learn to be more healthy. I think that we all have to learn not to judge larger people, but, many of them need to learn to deal with their problems. I realize that this is genetic, cultural, etc. But so are many other problems which people can eventually overcome. he isnt' yelling at the people in the State Mental Institution to stop being crazy, he is... I dont' want to say "being a psychiatrist", but... something that involves helping them in a reasonable way. Let's say... alohadawg is like a candystriper.

Well, except that he's not. If he was talking about giving support to fat people who actually asked for his support losing weight (friends on a diet, for example, or people he saw in some capacity as a health professional) I would agree with you, but it's incredibly rude to offer unsolicited health advice to strangers (of any weight, I should note). This is mostly because you don't know their circumstances, as you've noted; a fat person could well be having his first cookie in a week, a thin person could not be eating lunch due to having a heavy breakfast or having other things to do on his lunch break, &c. Unsolicited advice to strangers in public places, when you don't know what they've been eating previously or their dietary history, is just crass.

Not to mention that most of the things people do, and a lot of the things AD mentioned, are in no way constructive to health. Glaring at fat people on public transportation doesn't encourage them to get healthy, it makes them feel persecuted (which is unfair to people who can't help their weight and unhelpful to those people who are actually just gluttons, since nothing reinforces bad behavior like a persecution complex). While some behaviors may be appropriate to help fat people engage in a healthier lifestyle, unsolicited behaviors towards strangers almost never are, and most of them are just discrimination couched in "health advice" to make it seem less judgmental and more justified.

[AlohaDawg]

Well, except that he's not. If he was talking about giving support to fat people who actually asked for his support losing weight (friends on a diet, for example, or people he saw in some capacity as a health professional) I would agree with you, but it's incredibly rude to offer unsolicited health advice to strangers (of any weight, I should note). This is mostly because you don't know their circumstances, as you've noted; a fat person could well be having his first cookie in a week, a thin person could not be eating lunch due to having a heavy breakfast or having other things to do on his lunch break, &c. Unsolicited advice to strangers in public places, when you don't know what they've been eating previously or their dietary history, is just crass.

Not to mention that most of the things people do, and a lot of the things AD mentioned, are in no way constructive to health. Glaring at fat people on public transportation doesn't encourage them to get healthy, it makes them feel persecuted (which is unfair to people who can't help their weight and unhelpful to those people who are actually just gluttons, since nothing reinforces bad behavior like a persecution complex). While some behaviors may be appropriate to help fat people engage in a healthier lifestyle, unsolicited behaviors towards strangers almost never are, and most of them are just discrimination couched in "health advice" to make it seem less judgmental and more justified.

We differ in the application of the term rude: if a person is committed for mental illness against their will or stopped from committing suicide, that is equally rude and intrusive (and possibly more so) but absolutely socially necessary. From my point of view, if a person's health care cost or a portion of them are borne by others (i.e., the state is covering costs or to a lesser extent, a person belongs to a group purchasing a health plan) than others, say the public or members of the group have a vested interest in a member not costing a lot of money for care. So they should be able to compel members to avoid habits or lifestyles likely to cause them to spend money, like, say, smoking or excessive weight. Self-insurance on an individual basis or group plans created for risk groups or that index premiums to risk are the only ways to avoid others from having that interest in a third party's health (barring infectious disease).

As for the question of judgment: humans are hard-wired for comparison, discernment and judgment. And rightly so, for we form opinions. I think that it's equally fair to consider my opinions here as subject to judgment as well - it can hardly be helped. People react a certain way and others react to the reaction. I believe that we are all subject to a good deal of highly subjective evaluation constantly and despite our correct hope that one day humanity will rise above that to see what's inside (and despite a good many people who claim they do) the fact is that it's probably in the best social interest to present oneself in the way that the most people will find positive (reference Side_Show's post about the lady with the beard). Sad but true; judgment is with ALL of us and isn't going away.

Executive Summary: I think you're smart and all but I disagree.

[V-Adore]

We differ in the application of the term rude: if a person is committed for mental illness against their will or stopped from committing suicide, that is equally rude and intrusive (and possibly more so) but absolutely socially necessary. From my point of view, if a person's health care cost or a portion of them are borne by others (i.e., the state is covering costs or to a lesser extent, a person belongs to a group purchasing a health plan) than others, say the public or members of the group have a vested interest in a member not costing a lot of money for care. So they should be able to compel members to avoid habits or lifestyles likely to cause them to spend money, like, say, smoking or excessive weight. Self-insurance on an individual basis or group plans created for risk groups or that index premiums to risk are the only ways to avoid others from having that interest in a third party's health (barring infectious disease).

I seriously have no idea even where to start.

Suicide argument: reductio ad absurdam, bar none. A fat person eating something unhealthy in public is in no way putting oneself in obvious, immediate danger of death in a way that someone attempting public suicide is. Neither is, say, a thin person not eating enough, a smoker lighting up a single cigarette, and so on.

Public responsibility argument: how far are you willing to extend this? Does it also apply to, say, elderly people or poor people doing something you believe to be unsafe (since they may be on Medicare or Medicaid)? Does this apply to anyone whose you have some reasonable expectation might not have individual private health insurance?

Also, are you aware how crass this sounds? "Excuse me, ma'am, I would like to remind you not to eat that because I believe it might at some point be a factor in a heart attack which, if you are uninsured, might cost me a tax dollar."

I don't disagree with a lot of your ideas -- that is, that people have a responsibility to intervene when someone is obviously causing harm to him/herself in a public place. But your definition of "obviously causing harm" appears to include, well, just existing above a certain weight, and to paraphrase e. e. cummings, that is some shit I will not eat. You've basically told me here, in a backhanded way, that by existing I am a risk to myself and a burden on society. To which I can only repeat: well, fuck you. It's none of your business unless I'm engaging in Mr. Creosote-level obscene gluttony. Who died and told you that you had a right to judge my eating habits as "unsafe to society?"

[miles]

OK, this is clearly a touchy issue.

My sisters and I have dealt with weight issues growing up, but the youngest (who is very thin now) and I have mostly been able to keep it under control (though I have the beer gut from hell.  I kid you not.  I mean, that thing's huge).  But the one between us in age is seriously obese.  (By all those weight indexes I am too, I think, but I suppose I hide it much more easily.  Also, I am trying to take the weight off again.  It's just that I gain it so easily.)  But anyway, it's always been a very sensitive issue with the sister that is very overweight.  On one hand, it's strange.  Because if a family member smokes, or drinks excessively, or does drugs, or whatever, for the most part, no one has trouble with dispensing health advice.  But we used to have to tiptoe around the weight issue with her.  (I was this way once, too.)  So it seems that there should be no difference between one person who drinks too much (but doesn't drive while drunk) and smokes (in his own home with air filters) and a person who is obese.

But, there is.  Being overweight is more closely related to issues that bear heavily on one's notion of self-worth, and if a person who is overweight feels that people (especially loved ones) are judging him because he is simply unattractive or inconvenient or whatever--well, it's extremely hurtful.  I think the whole fat discrimination thing has been blown way out of proportion recently (especially with that Tyra Banks stunt--I can't wait for the book:  Fat Like Me), and I certainly agree with Dawg in that it is a public health issue that must be addressed.  But it's also one that must be treated in a different manner, I think, than, say, drug addiction.  When telling a fat person that he should lose weight so he can live longer and enjoy a much higher quality of life, it doesn't help at all to remind him that large segments of society find him unattractive or inconvenient.  Or maybe it's not so different.  I imagine that effective drug treatment doesn't include lectures on how unreliable or worthless addicts are.  (To be clear, I don't equate obesity with drug addiction.)

But even though it is a public health issue, it's not clear exactly what that means.  If that argument is taken too far, then lots of activities could be ruled out.  There is clearly a line, even if it's hard to find out where, between the government reasonably limiting freedoms for the public good (seatbelt laws, age-related liquor and tobacco laws, etc.) and just plain unfair intrusion.  Mandatory diets for fat people, I think, clearly crosses the line.

[Ben-San]

I think we can all settle down as the problem will resolve itself when I die of my inevitable early stroke or heart attack. Panic attacks generally keep me inside the house six days out of seven or more so I am not bothering any skinny people usually and I am uninsured so I am not a financial strain on thin society as a whole. Also because being fat and scared to leave the house are not really disabilities I am not leeching off any hard-working thin people's tax dollars, and obviously I am no particular threat to the virginities of their sisters and daughters. So this is really a self-addressing issue.