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[miles]

I know that these things I say must be wrong, but I cannot for the life of me understand why. I wish every religion could have the "these are our rules, but if you don't follow them... I suppose its ok. You don't know any better" attitude that Judaism has. But... that's kind of a cop-out.

So there was an article I read in Slate the other day on this very topic.  I was thinking about it on the way home from work today, and then I remembered this post, and then...well, the rest is history.

[sjlimmer]

Oddly enough, I just read something on the topic as well.

One part I found interesting:

Such remarks [comments from Mel Gibson on on-Catholic christians being hell-cound]deeply embarrass two groups of Catholics: those who believe it but think it is best left unsaid, and those who don't believe it at all — no matter what "the chair" may pronounce. And which group of Catholics is larger, or more influential? That is utterly unknown and currently unknowable, a part of the unsavory miasma.

It is equally unknown how many Muslims truly believe that all infidels deserve death, which is what the Koran undeniably says. Most Muslims, I would guess, are sincere in their insistence that the injunction that apostates be killed is to be disregarded, but it's disconcerting, to say the least, that fear of being regarded as an apostate is apparently a major motivation in the Islamic world. So it is not just we outsiders who are left guessing.

[Emergent_C]

If you truly believe that consuming animal flesh is wrong, or that "unsaved" people will be doomed to an eternity of torture, then you do have a moral obligation to try to convert everyone you meet. This is a tragic, annoying fact.

When I was religious, a coworker used to tell me she thought it was great that I didn't go around trying to convert everyone. Her "compliment" actually made me feel like a huge asshole, because I wasn't doing my job. I reconsidered the whole religious thing shortly thereafter.

[Limmo]

I reconsidered the whole religious thing shortly thereafter.

And what was the result of your reconsideration?  Did you abandon the religious thing, or just bear down harder on the whole saving-souls bit?

[Emergent_C]

I had already been questioning the religion I was born into, and by pointing out my reluctance to proselytize, she unknowingly made me come to the realization that I'd better shit or get off the pot. I got off the pot.

[pmcd9]

I had already been questioning the religion I was born into, and by pointing out my reluctance to proselytize, she unknowingly made me come to the realization that I'd better shit or get off the pot. I got off the pot.

I'm getting back on the pot.  I've decided that not having faith doesn't fit well with my lifestyle.  Even though I can't convince my head, i'm gonna go ahead and let Jesus back into my heart.

~Paul

[wombat]

Whatever you like, Paul, as long as you send pictures.

[Bozack]

I think I might become a Quaker.

[theinevitable]

I have removed the bulk of what this post was going to be, because I realized that rediculous teenage angst is not related to this.
to sum up the relevant part:

ooh, I am interested in religion lately. the only part holding me back is my innate scepticism of the existance of God.
something inside of me rejects the concept, even as another part finds that a certain faith is so perfect for me that it must be some kind of joke. Or... real.

I overly intellectualize it, is probably the problem.

but then again, this is a comic strip about alive stuffed animals. so, by defintion, I'm either someone who intellectualizes things, or a small child.

_{is intellectualize the right word? I am not so sure.}

[misterqueue]

I think the idea of a god is silly, but paul is not me and that's what makes the world go round kids.

So yay for paul and enjoy your new buddy!

Let us agree to like each other anyway and not call each other infidels and heretics.  This is the TOUAMB way!

[AlohaDawg]

Lee Strobel has written three interesting and thought provoking books. He was the legal affairs editor for the Chicago Tribune and they read farily easily and quickly:

The Case for a Creator
The Case for Christ
The Case for Faith

Basically he interviews experts (scientists in the first, theologians in teh second) and presents the arguments of skeptics. I can't say they are quite 'objective' but they do give you a lot of really interesting things to think about in the context of the questions surroudning these issues.

[Limmo]

And here's a page of Strobel criticism. 

[V-Adore]

I am like this close for taking up Christianity, except that I can't get past the big hurdle of actually believing in Jesus Christ. It just... is not something I have faith in, and that, as I see it, is the end of the story. I find religion fascinating, but I truly don't know if there's a God, and I truly don't have faith that Jesus was even involved. I suppose I'll stay a "fuzzy scientific deist" and go with it.

That said, I occasionally get frustrated by people who get around the "conversion of sinners as moral necessity" thing by claiming that, since Christ was good, to be "good" is to be Christian by default. I find it both offensive (the idea that one could only act ethically, or live by a personal morality, because of a secret, possibly subconscious/pseudo-Freudian faith) and kind of dismissive of Christianity -- after all, isn't faith in Jesus the whole point? While good works are good and all, isn't the main thrust the acceptance of Christ as savior? If you're going to be a Christian, either work on converting those heathens or come to have faith that God judges by something other than faith, because believing in this sort of "crypto-faith" is unbelievably weird.

[miles]

While Jesus tells his followers to convert heathens, he tells his followers a lot of things that they don't always do.  It's easy to imagine someone who belives in Jesus but just doesn't give a fuck whether I do.  It's not either/or.  You can belive that he's the way, the truth, and the life, and not actively work on converting others.

[AugustWest]

I consider myself a Christian because I believe what Christ said: "Love thy neighbor as thyself".  He said that was the most important thing to do and that's how I try to live.  I'm pretty lousy at following it.

I consider that and the rest of the things that Jesus said about how we should live our lives (e.g. feed the hungry, help the poor, don't be a cock to strangers...) the important part of Christianity.  The rest of it, well, meh.  I don't have much use for it.

Here's how I break it down -- There's the morals/ethics that Christ taught.  Then there's the mythology/lore/religion that has about Christ himself.  As much as I respect the former, I don't have much use for the latter.

Was Jesus the Son of God?  Did he rise from the dead?  Walk on water?  I don't know.  I really don't care whether he did or not.  What is the purpose of those assertions?  Why am I being told these things?

I submit that we are told these things to give us a reason to believe in Jesus's substantive ethical teachings.  It's like this:

A:  Jesus says we should love our neighbors.
B:  So, who cares what he says?  Who is this Jesus guy anyway?
A:  He's the Son of God.
B:  Yeah, right...
A:  No really.  He healed the sick and walked on water.  He even came back from the dead.
B:  Wow!  Maybe he is something special.  But why should I do what he says?
A:  Cause if you do you'll go the heaven and things will be great, otherwise you go to hell and man that will suck bad.
B:  OK then.

OK, so assume I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.  What am I supposed to do with that fact?  How should that influence my daily life?  Hmmm, a hungry man just asked me for food.  What should I do?  Well, Jesus is the Son of God.  Not much help.  Hmmm, should I steal this money from the poorbox?  Well, Jesus rose from the dead and sitteth on the right hand of God.  OK, that seems kind of irrelevant. By itself, the mythology is worthless.

I don't need that sort of exterior motivation to see the wisdom of Jesus' teaching.  I can be entirely skeptical about the more myth-like aspects of what we've been told about Jesus and still whole-heartedly embrace the substance of what he taught.  Love thy neighbor as thyself.  That's what I have faith in and what I think matters.  That's what the rest of it is designed to bring you to.