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[pmcd9]

Thank You August, that was very helpful.  Do you think you could get into a long drawn out debate with AD, just for my sake?  I could really use that right now.

~Paul

[AugustWest]

I can't tell whether you're being facetious or not Paul, but I'm always up for a debate.

Especially with AD.  Perhaps that would help certain people learn to distinguish between the two of us.

[AlohaDawg]

Jesus was the only begotten Son of God by the Holy Spirit. God, Christ and the Spirit are the Trinity, one thing in three, the earthly embodiment, the power, and the eternal being of God.

In nearly literal fulfillment of some 4 dozen old testament prophecies, and because of the sin and fall of mankind in Eden, Jesus came to Earth to ransom the children of God from sin, death, Hell and this fallen world by suffering torture and death in a humiliating way.

Yes, He did teach many things about how we treat each other and God wants us to show His love to and share His Grace with all people through our actions.

The most important thing though, from a Christian perspective is the promise of salvation sealed by the mark of the cross on our brow during baptism, our fundamental understanding that we are continuosuly showered in Grace and compelled by the teaching of Christ to share that grace with others (particularly those most in need)  and our belief in the resurrection of Christ which saved us all from bondage to sin, flesh, and the world and was the greatest gift of God's love to us since Creation itself.

We teach that evangelism is, at it's most simple, demonstrating God's love to others through our actions. It need not contain messages of proselytizing nor calls for conversion. At it's most basic and powerful, it is God's love passed to others freely without requirement or request.

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Limmo: I did mention the books aren't entirely objective. And I encourage a grain of salt when reading anything. But for those of you considering making Christ, God or Faith a part of your life, I would say read and make up your own mind. No matter how your react to the books, if you keep an open mind you will learn something I'm sure.

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Bozack: Quakers have interesting beliefs. I don't think I could be one, but certainly their strong stand against violence is admirable.

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[dejavroom]

What about Shakers?

[misterqueue]

I prefer candlestick makers.

[wombat]

I'd say it's time to split this thread, but why spoil it?

[V-Adore]

AW:

I respect your opinion, and I respect the idea that the most important elements of Christianity in terms of day-to-day living are Jesus's ideas about loving one another and basically, to put it in the vernacular, Not Being a Crap Dude. Most of Jesus's ideas in regard to Not Being a Crap Dude are pretty good, and my personal values are similar on most of the salient points. What really frustrates me, though, is the weird pseudo-logic of "Jesus told people not to be crap dudes, so by definition anyone who isn't a crap dude is Christian." It strikes me as both insulting to other religions and ethical systems (since it implies that Christianity has a monopoly on teaching people to live ethically) and Christianity (since it implies that there's no meaningful faith component at all).

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: I try to live my life decently, and as a product of late-20th/early-21st-century American majority culture, my idea of how to do this is broadly Judeo-Christian: "be generous, be merciful, and follow the Golden Rule." However, I am an agnostic. If the response from a Christian is to say that I need to be converted -- okay, I'll respect that as their opinion, although I probably won't convert unless presented with a case stronger than the ones anyone's made to date or an epiphany. If the response is to say "you're living a life at least vaguely in accord with Jesus's principles, and that's the important part, so the matter of faith can be let ride," I'll respect that too. However, if the response is "you're living a life at least vaguely in accord with Jesus's principles, so you must actually be a Christian!" I will be simultaneously confused and vaguely offended, is all.

EDIT: To answer Wombat, if people want a split, I'll split. However, if people don't care, I'll leave it be so people won't get confused.

[AlohaDawg]

Works are important but works without faith are dead.

James wrote that just as the body without the spirit is dead, so works without faith are dead also. (James 2:26)

I think his point is that if one goes about being nice and helpful that's OK. That's how it should be. But to break free of sin and death; to give these works meaning in the context of the whole reason for Creation and the gift of Christ, faith is an essential component of the motivation to do good works, as in my last post: the sharing of the love of God in all that you do, selflessly and often without mentioning the reason behind it. It's about love, and love is about faith and trust. It's hard to give love, sort of a part of yourself, to people you don't know or people you have great differences with.

That's exactly why the best of good works (and indeed, all good works) absolutely require faith.

Note though, that as imperfect beings we are subject to selgiraffeness and sin. All of us. Part of our faith includes faith in the forgiveness of God if we take our sin to Him and sincerely repent.

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Jesus taught many things that have been taught sincerely by many since. Buddha and Mohammed, Gandhi - all really good people. The basis of Christianity for found in the Creeds - the most basic tenets of our faith. I'll not type out the creeds here (and the Athanasian Creed is really really long!) but for reference they are the Apostles Creed (between 29 and 95 AD), the Nicene Creed (325 AD) and the aforementioned Athanasian Creed (possibly 5th Century). All three share similar elements: (1) They define the trinity as three equal, distinct facets of what we understand as divinity, in all God is eternal (not created or begotten) Christ is begotten (not created or born) and the Holy Spirit  proceeds from both. (2) They discuss the incarnation of God in Christ, his appearance on earth as man, and his suffering and dying (3) they discuss the resurrection of Christ and for whom he was resurrected (4) They discuss that Christ is in Heaven and will return in judgment.

These beliefs form the core of the Christian belief and were actually written first (in the Apostle's Creed) in fairly short order after the death and resurrection of Christ.

[CortJstr]

if the response is "you're living a life at least vaguely in accord with Jesus's principles, so you must actually be a Christian!" I will be simultaneously confused and vaguely offended, is all.

Don't worry, it's not just you. The Catholic church is similar in that it says that if you're a Christian then you're actually a Catholic. Most protestants that I've talked to about this are simultaneously confused and more than vaguely offended but it's the same exact principle.

I do agree with The Church on another point though. Being Not a Crap Dude is what's important, actual motives and faith are secondary and not even necessary for getting a room near Blister's.

[Limmo]

I don't want this thread to be split.  I like the idea of the Christianity debate being called "Bonkers T. McQuack". 

[AlohaDawg]

I do agree with The Church on another point though. Being Not a Crap Dude is what's important, actual motives and faith are secondary and not even necessary for getting a room near Blister's.

Without Faith, why would you think there even exists "a room near Blister's"? To believe that there is something beyond death has strong implications.

[Limmo]

Without Faith, why would you think there even exists "a room near Blister's"? To believe that there is something beyond death has strong implications.

Yeah, but believing there is "something" beyond death and believing in the Christian afterlife are two entirely different things.  I find it hard to believe that we just cease to exist when we die.  But I find it impossible to believe in heaven and hell.

[CortJstr]

That's the point. The Church says that there's a place in heaven even for non-believers and members of other faiths so long as they are not Crap Dudes. Individual belief is immaterial.

If we use Limmo's post above as an example, according the Catholic dogma he'll still end up in heaven when he dies. The fact that he doesn't believe it exists does not matter at all.

[Limmo]

I'm pleased you think I'm going to heaven.  I'm sure the five slaughtered Jehovah's Witnesses buried under my house would agree with you. 

Cort: while that may be true for the Catholic church, evangelical Christianity would hold the exact opposite to be true - that I could do good works for the rest of my life in a non-Jesusy fashion and still end up spending eternity in the place where that guy with the pitchfork conducts his business.

[Carlos del Vaca]

I'm with Cort on this one.  If you say a particular faith is imperative, then you're opening the possibility that someone could be born, live, and die in a remote backwater, never ever hear of Christianity (through no fault of his own), be Not A Crap Dude and in fact a splendid person his whole life, and still go to hell.  Not cool.