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[AugustWest]

I've been consciously trying to make statements and present evidence here without proselytizing. I'm basically sharing my personal belief and understanding of the history and the words that make up the Christian faith. So please don't look at these posts as an appeal to conversion or evangelizing.

I think everybody understands and appreciates that.  Conversely, please do not take any questions offered as insulting or directed personally.

I was very dubious about posting in this thread.  I'm always concerned when we start talking about religion or politics.  However as long as we stay civil and respectful to each other I've got no problem.  First time things start looking mean in here I'm locking this baby up and placing a size 12 tassled loafer upside the offenders glutea.

[AlohaDawg]

Jesus told Peter to start The Church for him with the whole "you are my rock" bit.

I don't have the texts memorized or anything because I'm busy and porn doesn't download itself but at some point fairly recently the Church decreed that non-Catholics can get into heaven but that it's significantly harder for them without the sacraments due to the inherent Crap-Dudiness of man. I'm guessing this was at Vatican II.

I'm thinking if that was in an encyclical or Papal Bull, it alluded to Christians in general and meant that, for instance, Methodists meeting similar criteria were as worthy of Heaven as Catholics. I don't think it would refer to people outside of generally Christian traditions.

Part 1, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 1, SubSection 3, Heading 5

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. 42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"]
Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 10, SubSection 1

977 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." 521 Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life." 522


Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, SubSection 7, Heading 2

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;

- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;

- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.

Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 3

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 4

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

I'm not Catholic - but it seems to me that the basic requirements are Baptism, Faith, Works, and Prayer. And the Faith part seems to be specific belief in the Resurrection of Christ. This is just my understanding of the Catholic Catechism, though.

Marin Luther shortened this list to Baptism and Faith.

Vatican II closed in 1965 and the Catechism came out in 1992. It's unlikely the Catechism was published with Doctrine that controverts the Ecumenical Council of the Vatican.

Edited for Clarity multiple times

[Carlos del Vaca]

I have little to add--I agree with AW that discussing religion is a can o' worms I'd usually prefer not to open.  But I appreciate AD's well-spoken and Non-Crap-Dude answers.

[AlohaDawg]

I have little to add--I agree with AW that discussing religion is a can o' worms I'd usually prefer not to open.  But I appreciate AD's well-spoken and Non-Crap-Dude answers.

I especially appreciate this from Carlos. Sincerely.

[AlohaDawg]

Also, I'm going camping tonight through Sunday with my daughter (Y-Guides) so I'll be non-participating for awhile, but I don't think I have more to say that wouldn't be more personal so PM me if you want to talk about this stuff private-like.

Also, voting ends Monday so ROCK the VOTE for the TOUAMBIES.

[V-Adore]

Thanks, AD. You've made some really good points here; I don't think I've had a road-to-Damascus moment, but it's always good to have thoughtful conversation and to consider this stuff.

Have I mentioned that I am frequently and pleasantly surprised by how classy this place can be?

[AugustWest]

Have fun camping!

I'm jealous.  First, because you're camping and nobody in my family would do that with me.  Second because you can camp now.  It's about farking 20 out at night here.

[Limmo]

Also because you're camping in Hawaii. 

[theinevitable]

hrm.

Personally, I really really like the Jewish postion reguarding gentiles.
basically: the 400-some (I think 435?) commandments only apply to jewish people. there are only like 4 that apply to non-jewish people, and they're things like "don't eat an animal while it's still alive". God does not hold people who have not accepted the covenant responsible for the other commandments.


OK, so, question:
if all you have to do is accept Jesus wholeheartedly, is there really any purpose to any of Jesus' teachings? I mean, the only response anyone has been able to give me is "if you accept jesus, you accept his teachings." But if all that's neccessary to avoid hell is acceptance of jesus, doesn't that kind of imply that you can get away with ignoring his teachings?

I don't really know a word other than "teachings" to mean this, so I used this word a lot. I am sorry for that.

[jough]

I think the whole "accepting Jesus as your personal saviour" thing includes following his teachings and being a "good Christian."  I mean, it's God's house - you gotta follow his rules or you can just go to hell.

[pmcd9]

I can't tell whether you're being facetious or not Paul

I'm being completely honest.  When I was young I accepted Jesus as my savior and became a Christian.  I always heard talk about a "personal relaionship" with Jesus.  I'm not sure I ever really undersood what that was supposed to actually mean, but whatever it is I never really felt it.  So there have been nagging doubts in my mind almost from the very beginning of my "walk with Jesus."  More recently though, based on my intellectual understanding of these issues, I fully rejected the notions of heaven and hell and creation as well as the nature of how God interacts with us, as it's presented in the Bible.  This obviously left me without a basis for my faith that there is any reason for my existance.  It also left me without a basis for my belief in life beyond the grave, as well as my rationale for being moral.  Yet I do believe in these things, I just don't know how or why.   Or maybe I just want to believe these things are true.  Either way, this is a serious quandry for me.  My solution, a triumph of the heart over the head.  Since I have no real basis for my faith, i've decided to just go ahead and believe in God.  Why not?

On a side note, I recently prayed for the first time in a long time.  I was praying over my current job situation and asking God for guidance in the matter.  It felt really good to do and I felt like it really helped me sort out the situation.  I think that God has big plans for me in Miami.  Whoops, wait, I may need to recalibrate the old prayer wheel.

~Paul

[miles]

Whoa. God is Mormon.

[wombat]

there are only like 4 that apply to non-jewish people, and they're things like "don't eat an animal while it's still alive". .

Oh dang.

[Hobot]

things like "don't eat an animal while it's still alive".

Oh dang.

Yeah.  That's pretty unreasonable.

Way to go, God.  Way to SUCK.

[AlohaDawg]

hrm.

Personally, I really really like the Jewish postion reguarding gentiles.
basically: the 400-some (I think 435?) commandments only apply to jewish people. there are only like 4 that apply to non-jewish people, and they're things like "don't eat an animal while it's still alive". God does not hold people who have not accepted the covenant responsible for the other commandments.

Actually, I would say at least 10 based on the tablets Moses received on Mt. Sinai. But you may be referring specifically to what is in the Talmud of which I am not familiar.

Gentile is an interesting word. Jewish people use it to describe all who are not Jewish. Christians use it to describe all who aren't Christian and Jewish. Mormons use it to describe everyone not in their specific sect of Mormonism.

Just this morning on the bus I was comtemplating why there never developed in large scale (Jews for Jesus not withstanding) a Judaic Christian tradition that held on to more of the traditions of Judaism which Jesus celebrated as an observant Jew while still acknowledging His fulfillment (accoridng to Christians) of the messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. I would love to better understand the path of faith that Jesus himself walked.