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[Limmo]

AlohaDawg, you are just awesome.

[Ben-San]

Just this morning on the bus I was comtemplating why there never developed in large scale (Jews for Jesus not withstanding) a Judaic Christian tradition that held on to more of the traditions of Judaism which Jesus celebrated as an observant Jew while still acknowledging His fulfillment (accoridng to Christians) of the messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. I would love to better understand the path of faith that Jesus himself walked.

The simple reason is that most of the sweeping changes made by the Church in the early-ish days were to make their religion more mass-marketable as a tradeoff of giving up tenets of the faith in exchange for either getting the key element of salvation out or expanding their power base, depending on who you ask. In a thriving religious free market, Judaism's combination of monotheism with restrictive laws on hygiene and diet would not sell. This was fine for the Jews, who were not particularly evangelistic and had a well-entrenched base of dedicated practitioners, but for a startup cult it's a no-go. Once they'd changed the formula enough, the cult exploded in popularity, and obviously it was the version that chose to overlook or overwrite Jewish tradition that did so. A competing version simply would not be able to survive against it.

The situation changed once Christianity monopolized the Western market, but by then the damage was done: much like rabid so-called Harry Potter fans who write epic tales about the character who was mentioned once on page 246 and start shrieking like banshees when the books contradict their fanfiction, Christians viewed the Torah as an amusing prequel at best compared to the layer of fan-cruft piled onto it.

[CortJstr]

The way it was explained to me in CCD was that since Jesus fullfilled the old covanent that all the rules of the Old Testament/Torah no longer applied. Which is why he talked about the 10 commandments to say, "we're keeping these in the next covanent. And also, the golden rule still applies."

[AlohaDawg]

The simple reason is that most of the sweeping changes made by the Church in the early-ish days were to make their religion more mass-marketable as a tradeoff of giving up tenets of the faith in exchange for either getting the key element of salvation out or expanding their power base, depending on who you ask. In a thriving religious free market, Judaism's combination of monotheism with restrictive laws on hygiene and diet would not sell. This was fine for the Jews, who were not particularly evangelistic and had a well-entrenched base of dedicated practitioners, but for a startup cult it's a no-go. Once they'd changed the formula enough, the cult exploded in popularity, and obviously it was the version that chose to overlook or overwrite Jewish tradition that did so. A competing version simply would not be able to survive against it.

I don't think it's that simple. In the 'early-ish' days as you put it, to become a Christian was to risk persecution and martyrdom. Christians were pursued and killed by Romans and also by Temple Authorities. Yet there were over 10,000 Christians at the end of the 1st Century. I don't know how you make that 'mass-marketable'. As for giving up the tenets, I think that would be a very difficult choice as well. Judaic authority in those days was the social fabric - to not practice as a Jew was pretty much the end of your family life and your community life. That would not be easy. On the other hand, our Communion is evolved from the Passover 'Seder' and Baptism almost certainly stems from the Jewish 'mikveh' and 'tevillah'. Jesus himself was baptised prior to the beginning of His ministry; it was not a Christian invention. Both Baptism and Communion were practiced by the early church in the first century.

We also should remember that the apostles, including the skeptic Thomas, and James the brother of Jesus (also a skeptic who later was a leader of the early church in Jerusalem) were all Jewish. (In fact, when Paul came to Jerusalem to donate raised funds for needy Christians there, James insists that he ritually cleanse himself Paul ritually cleanse himself in Herod's Temple to prove his faith and deny rumors of teaching rebellion against the Torah)These men gave up everything including their lives to spread the gospel and start the early church. It is the Apostles firsthand writings that make up much of the New Testament along with the writings of some others who came a little bit later.  Christianity was at its root a movement within Judaism; probably not intended to supplant Judaism but something akin to the Reformation. However, as the practice spread among Jews and non-Jews, and as the practitioners distance from the temples and Jewish authorities (necessary due to persecution) continued and increased, the practices evolved.  Also, in my opinion, the early Christians were conscious of Jesus' attitude toward temple practices of the time as well as the well-known cooperation between the Temple Authorities and Rome - these formed a pretty solid wedge. Even the skeptics became followers after encountering the risen Christ.

Notable also is the conversion of a great persecutor and in fact, killer of Christians. Saul of Tarsus became the Apostle Paul; the only Apostle not present during Jesus' life. He gave up a title, prestige, a good job and became a HUGE target for the authorities because he was well known. What kind of marketing would that take? Picture Donald Trump giving up his empire, everything he owns, to work for $10 an hour at a non-profit that did outreach to addicts. How would you talk him into it? That's the magnitude of conversion we're kind of talking about. I don't think 'Mass Marketing' or 'Easier Lifestyle' covers this, or any of the other conversions in the early church.
 

The situation changed once Christianity monopolized the Western market, but by then the damage was done: much like rabid so-called Harry Potter fans who write epic tales about the character who was mentioned once on page 246 and start shrieking like banshees when the books contradict their fanfiction, Christians viewed the Torah as an amusing prequel at best compared to the layer of fan-cruft piled onto it.

This reads like Anti-Christian bigotry to me, and I think you're better than that. Certainly I value both my Jewish friends and the Torah and of course the Old Testament of the Christian bible is about the early history of the Jewish people. So I don't quite understand where that second quote comes from.

[Ben-San]

Obviously I have simplified the situation greatly in my description. It is true that in the very early days, Christianity was what you might call "Jeshuvite Judaism", the practices of the devoted followers of an eccentric rabbi. This is why I added the "ish" to "early".

However, it is my understanding that much of the discarding of Jewish traditions was done for evangelical purposes. I think taking the events as described in the Bible as historical record for this kind of argument is kind of problematic (really, my issue here is with the line about skeptics and the risen Christ) because even if you assume that they are basically true, which I don't, they're still "history as written by the winners".

I'm sorry that the last bit sounds like Anti-Christian Bigotry. What it was intended to sound like was A Joke. As you may notice, it is a metaphor that compares my own holy texts to the popular "Harry Potter" series of novels. There are fans of these novels who have written novellas about the True Love of Harry and Hermione, and when the latest book split up that couple the fans rewrote the relevant passages and released a "Harmonian" version of the book that supported their view. I thought this was a funny metaphor to draw. If it helps illustrate the joke status of this metaphor, I can extend it so that Mormons are the fans who write "An American X-Man At Hogwarts".

[AlohaDawg]

I'm intrigued by your use of "winners" and "losers" in this context. I don't really see it that way. My 'prize' is not in this world anyway.

The Bible is only one source of the history of the church. Much is also found in the writings of Roman and Greek historians and those of Josephus (who was, I believe, a Jew) as well. There is a lot of corroborating information to that which is found in the bible - not of the appearances of Christ, although there are interesting arguments for that too - but for the actions of the Apostles and followers of Christ in the first century.

I'm not thinking you and I are likely to come to an agreement on this anytime soon, though. And from  your other posts, I kind of figured you weren't engaging in bigotry but really, it doesn't parse too well as a joke either. Suffice it to say I think Judaism is a rich faith and my Jewish friends good people.

[wombat]

I interrupt this serious discussion under the thread title "Bonkers T. McQuack"  to observe that it has to matter that a religion that forbids you from eating bacon is at a serious competitive disadvantage.  I mean, bacon. 

As you were.

[robot_god]

I was raised Christian and believed in it until about age 16 when I abandoned all religious beliefs.  Then, about a year ago, I experienced the Third Enlightenment and realized Buddhism is the true path.

[Ben-San]

I'm intrigued by your use of "winners" and "losers" in this context. I don't really see it that way. My 'prize' is not in this world anyway.

Well, I'm agreed on that one. You guys can have as many conversions as you want as long as you can keep the inquisitions in your #####; we'll see how things turn out in the end when we get there. My point is that even if the events are all assumed to be roughly true (resurrection and all), it's a biased text when it comes to, say, people's reactions to Jesus or degrees and reasons for persecution. It's a 'biography' written by people who literally worship this dude. They will put him in the best possible light and his enemies in the worst possible. That's all their is to it.

As far as the joke goes, I think it's probably funnier to someone who doesn't take the whole thing too seriously. Where I'm concerned, Christianity is a sect what ain't too old to be taken over one knee. We seen you guys come and go.

Wombat, the bacon thing is a huge marketing disadvantage. Also lobster. Giraffe placentas, not so much so.

[Bobby Isosceles]

I interrupt this serious discussion under the thread title "Bonkers T. McQuack"  to observe that it has to matter that a religion that forbids you from eating bacon is at a serious competitive disadvantage.  I mean, bacon. 

As you were.

In 2001 I invented a holiday, along with several college friends, that we dubbed Bacon Day.

The first Bacon day had about 50 participants, and we cooked 12 lb of bacon. At the end, we ceremonially found a way to dispose of the grease, namely making french fries.

The second Bacon day, I believe we made vinaigrette from the grease.

On the third Bacon day, we made soap from the bacon fat using a tried and true recipe from blacktable.com.

On the fourth Bacon day, we made soap as well as curing our own bacon using a cold smoker. Except for when Joey (my avatar) decided that the cold smoker was too cold.

Bacon Day has its own festivities and regalia. Witness:



among other bacon-related poses.

Bacon Day 2006 will fall on May 09 (Orthodox) or the second Saturday in May (Reform; people who are inconvenienced that Bacon Day kept running into Mothers Day). There is some dissention among Baconeers about the date, so I just celebrate both unless my mother gives me a guilt trip.

[pmcd9]

Bobby, we are learning too much about you.

~Paul

[Bobby Isosceles]

Bobby, we are learning too much about you.

~Paul

There's something to be said about respecting your products. If you know the work it takes to cure your own bacon, or to make your own soap, you appreciate  consumer convenience that much more.

[Ben-San]

I am beginning to suspect that Bobby Isosceles is actually the living voice of a local cable access channel.

[Bobby Isosceles]

I am beginning to suspect that Bobby Isosceles is actually the living voice of a local cable access channel.

PEOPLE WE NEED TO RESPECT BACON OR ELSE WE GET TRAVESTIES LIKE THIS