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Author Topic: Religion Content from Name Thread  (Read 20822 times)

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Lister

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2006, 07:41:30 pm »

I was raised Protestant -- my father's family (though not him, necessarily) was STRONGLY Methodist, my mother grew up Episcopalian, and I went to a Presbyterian school from kindergarten through 12th grade.

Basically, when I look back on the way I thought the world worked then, it felt really good to have everything settled for me.  Having a Religion to answer all your questions is really comforting.  There's no uncertainty -- good or bad, the events that surround your life occur due to God's will.

Late in high school, some events changed my perspective on the benevolence of Religion and those who speak with God's authority.  I typed out all the details, but I'm not sure everyone needs/cares to read them, so I have colored them the same gray as the background and left them at the end of my post.  You can highlight it if you want to read it, but it really has very little to do with the discussion so there's not a whole lot of point to discussing it further.  Anyway, I started thinking about the role of humanity in the practice of religion, and started learning about stuff that was never taught in my school -- how the Bible has changed over the past milennia, for example.

Basically, my conclusion was that people are inherently selgiraffe, and this is bad for humanity as a whole.  We as a species need to consider our society to be more important than our individual needs in order to achieve whatever it is we're ultimately capable of.  Organized religions are good tools for this, and most of them have the same general principles at their heart, which basically want us to stop being greedy idiots and work together.  This is good.

The problem I have is that Organized Religions are run by people, who are still greedy and selgiraffe, and some of those people use the power of their position within the organization for their own benefit.  Most of the horrible things that have been done in the name of religion have had some person's greed at their heart.  The treasures in Vatican City aren't there because The Lord Blessed Them, they're there because humans in the organization convinced other humans that there would be an Eternal Reward for supplying those treasures.  Pat Robertson's suits are not paid for by The Lord's Bounty, they're paid for by his corporation who gets money from advertisers, syndicators, and people who send him money because they think he'll do The Lord's Work with it.  The gilt statues of Vishnu were paid for by thousands of people who believe that their sacrifice helps their souls.

And the thing is, I don't believe that it's a bad thing for people to want to give money to causes they believe in.  Organizations need money in order to achieve their goals, and it's really exceptionally rare that an entire organization is full of people who allow their own wants to supersede the values of the organization as a whole.  But there are enough, and they're in enough religions for me to be skeptical of all of them.

So what are the Beliefs at my core?  I Believe that the greatest evil is entropy, and the ultimate purpose of all life is to stave off entropy for as long as it can.  Working for purely selgiraffe desires doesn't achieve this goal.  Subsuming your desires in order to help others achieve does.  I Believe that religion is an invention of humanity, but not necessarily a bad one.  I Believe there are forces that shape the world that we don't necessarily comprehend or even have guessed about yet.  I Believe that what we think of as God is the whole of existence, and our inquisitiveness about the world is how we get closer to comprehending it.  These Beliefs aren't the ones I held as a child, or even necessarily ten years ago, but they define how I act and are part of who I am.  I certainly don't feel as warm and fuzzy about the world as I did when I was 15, but now I'm absolutely certain that my own actions and choices are what determine my future.

I think my personal worldview is compatible with religions, but people in those religions don't tend to believe that.  I'm not sure what the answer is there. 

So, the story.  It's basically some people being human but hiding behind God's Will.  It really isn't worth discussing further, so let's not drag these events into the thread as a whole.

There was this guy at school who did some bad stuff as a freshman and sophomore but settled down and was allowed to stay.  Last semester of our senior year, though, some yearbook photographer was taking his picture in the hall and he grabbed his crotch for one.  Despite the fact that only the yearbook staff saw it, this "lewd act" was enough to get him expelled.  We weren't happy -- almost everyone in our class loved that guy -- and we tried to voice our feelings.  The principal and superintendent allowed the first few appointments with students, but refused any others.  We tried to get everyone the chance to sign a petition supporting him, but teachers kept confiscating it. They called a Special Class Meeting where our principal told us how God's Laws mandated that they expel him for this lewd act, and lied to us about what our peers said in those meetings and on the petition.

Earlier that school year, several members of the football team (who went deep in the playoffs) were found to be hazing freshmen in ways that would have been called sexual assault had charges been filed.  The only people who were suspended for it were the second string players.  The ringleaders, all starters, were "warned" and faced "disciplinary action" which basically consisted of working out before and after school under supervision of the coaching staff.  Strangely enough, none of the information about this incident was published in the monthly parental newsletter, was never acknowledged by anyone official, and wasn't ever spoken about.

The same people under the same authority made these decisions, and continued to preach that they were following God's will in doing so.  God, judging by their words, wanted the football players, who actually sexually abused other human beings, to continue playing sports and bringing Glory to the school, but didn't want the student who had a non-publicized photo taken of him making a rude gesture to be allowed to graduate, because he was a "bad influence."
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slink

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2006, 09:51:11 pm »

Dude, God is faithful and he loves us. That's the point, is that he always holds up his end of the bargain. He's not the one who keeps fuck*ng up. We're the ones who wage war and do other terrible stuff.

What then, does God do?
Only love us? I have animals for that...
What you said has honestly just brought up a brick wall for me.
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Doc

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2006, 10:52:59 pm »

I think I'm feeling the same as Slink here, thinking 'So what does God do with the rest of His time?'
I know the normal answer (at least the one I've been presented with) is that He is unknowable and we can't expect to comprehend Him etc. but that's not really an answer, just an excuse for ignoring the question. The idea of God just seems to create more problems than it solves that's what I'm saying. I know this doesn't necessarily mean it's not true but when we have exactly 0 evidence either way I'm just the type of person that leans towards the simpler explanation.
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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2006, 11:08:03 pm »

this is the one thing I've never gotten.
Either "there was a singularity, but then for some reason it exploded, and all of the matter in the universe came from there. we do not know where it came from, or why it exploded. it was just random. everything that has happened since then has been due to chance, the laws of physics, etc"
or
"there was God. and then he created the universe, the earth, mankind, etc. we do not know where he came from, or why he created us/the universe/etc. He/She/Diety just is. Everything that has happened since then is the result of his creation, of the laws which he created for the universe, etc."

both of these seem pretty far-fetched. Even if you can prove everything back to the Big Bang or what-have-you, the Big Bang is still a pretty out-there idea. At least, to me.

I thought of this because I was in a science class where half the class was saying "God just made everything? that makes no sense!" and the other half was saying "everything just came from a big bang? that makes no sense!"
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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2006, 11:11:48 pm »

I think I'm feeling the same as Slink here, thinking 'So what does God do with the rest of His time?'
I know the normal answer (at least the one I've been presented with) is that He is unknowable and we can't expect to comprehend Him etc. but that's not really an answer, just an excuse for ignoring the question.

That's essentially what every discussion I've gotten into with a faith oriented person has ended up being.  In my mind it's the "..a wizard did it." Defense of Xena on the Simpsons.

(The reference being that a bunch of Xena nerds were asking about discrepencies in the episodes and she said "Any time you see something that doesn't make sense or is a discrepancy, a wizard did it." 

To them, faith is that wizard.  That's what it boils down to as far as the difference between the believer and saaaay myself.
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Ben-San

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2006, 12:01:11 am »

I think I'm feeling the same as Slink here, thinking 'So what does God do with the rest of His time?'

You think it's easy making sure gravity keeps pulling every mass in the universe towards every other mass? Dude's got plenty to occupy his time.
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Doc

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2006, 12:04:25 am »

Yeah but by definition an omnipotent being must have some downtime.
I'm not saying I can rule out the existance of a higher power just that I don't see any evidence for one now and the ones we come up with seem to have some pretty big logical holes in them so it just makes more sense to me to assume there isn't one.
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Ben-San

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2006, 12:13:53 am »

Yeah but by definition an omnipotent being must have some downtime.
I'm not saying I can rule out the existance of a higher power just that I don't see any evidence for one now and the ones we come up with seem to have some pretty big logical holes in them so it just makes more sense to me to assume there isn't one.

Sure, if that's how you feel. Faith is, as I've said earlier, not something that can be established or dispelled by logic.

Although an omnipotent being doesn't have to have downtime if he doesn't want to, more or less by definition.
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AlohaDawg

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2006, 12:39:29 am »

OK, to get back into this after deep breaths and etc.

I feel it's bullying for anyone to call bullshit what I feel the core of my identity is. I'm a Christian, raised that way since before I remember - no choice involved. My beliefs and my values have impacts on many decisions I make, on things I do, on how I deal with my kids and my troubles. For one to call my core beliefs bullshit is not only plainly wrong from my point of view but belittling, bullying and belying ignorance of what Christianity can and should be about. Casting disparaging commentary on something that important is basically telling me you don't like me. Certain it's telling me there is no respect for my values and feelings.

On the other hand, Jough, as a friend (that's the category I leave you in) I'm interested by your statement that you'll take me up on meeting on the other side and hearing me tell you you were right if there is nothing there but you said "I hope I'm wrong".

That's a seed of faith. If you take that hope and give it the right things it needs to grow, you could find a faith in your life. It's not up to me to decide what kind of faith it might become but if you want it it's there for you.

You can call me a superstitious moron or whatever you like, but I pray for you guys sometimes - I feel bad not always remembering to - Paul's had his share of troubles, when you were posting about eye problems a while back and about more current things, I said some words for you guys. And others, too, AsherDan for his wife and baby, and for their peace and comfort during the tragedy they endured before, Mel's health troubles, Linnea when she first decided to take a huge risk and move off to the distant outskirts of nowhere. Prayer never hurt anyone, and I know in my Christian heart that the prayers of others have carried me through some tough times. There's enough negativity in the world about so many things, so many people saying things that are untrue, unwise, uncomforting and unkind. Say some kind, supportive and caring words. Prayer is good.

Linnea and Ben have some really wonderful posts in here and I'm enjoying them. One thing that I try to do with my faith life is to keep it uncomplicated. I think seeking explanations for everything and rationales for everything, trying to hold God accountable to human standards, thinking that we have a 'deal' or a 'bargain' with God makes things overly complex and allows us to pour too much of our human, fallen selves into the mix.

Edit: the next statement is biased toward very simplistic Christianity - but of course there are a myriad of faith paths from which you may choose

'God is love' is a good place to start. It's easy and it's true. Love as an emotion has no real value to us from a biological standpoint. But it's real and it allows us to do things we might never imagine. Love is a pretty great gift from God.

I love you guys especially when I'm at my insanest irrational angry incomprehensible silly posting stage. And if it seems like a good idea, I'll be praying for you too.


« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 04:03:50 am by AlohaDawg »
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AugustWest

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2006, 01:05:37 am »


I feel it's bullying for anyone to call bullshit what I feel the core of my identity is.


But what if they honestly think that something you believe is bullshit?  I agree that using words like "bullshit" isn't the most tactful or respectful way to proceed, but the bullshitters have as much right to their opinion as you do.

I think this is a problem that our society is facing on a lot of fronts these days.  We tend to dehumanize people if we disagree with them in a particular area.  This is most obvious in the political arena, but it crops up other places too.

It's a very fine line.  To a very great extent, what you believe determines who you are.  As you say, if I disrespect your beliefs I am disrespecting you.  On the other hand, I can know, respect and love a person and not understand or agree with everything they believe.  I may not understand what God means to you or exactly how God fits into your life, but I can still like the final product.

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2006, 01:53:47 am »

Better than I could've said it.



I think this was exactly what I was trying to say, only put more eloquently.  Thank you for this AW.
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Ben-San

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2006, 02:47:13 am »

I think seeking explanations for everything and rationales for everything, trying to hold God accountable to human standards, thinking that we have a 'deal' or a 'bargain' with God makes things overly complex and allows us to pour too much of our human, fallen selves into the mix.

I am going to endeavor not to take offense here, because I know none is intended, and just say that I'm glad stripping it down to "God Is Love" works for you. It doesn't for me; Judaism is a religion that holds studying, inquiring, and analyzing as high virtues, both in terms of the spiritual and ordinary world. That works better for me than "God Is Love" or any other expression of faith as blind emotion.

(Maybe this will seem incompatible with my previous statements about the dividing line between faith and logical proof, but it's not, in a way that would make this post way less concise to explain.)
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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2006, 03:56:09 am »

I think this was exactly what I was trying to say, only put more eloquently.  Thank you for this AW.

He always does.

~Paul
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AlohaDawg

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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2006, 04:02:14 am »

It is true, I think, that Israel actually means something like "he who struggles with G-d", No?

My own personal faith certainly extends beyond "G-d is love" but I think that Christians do have a fundamentally different relationship with God than that of Jews - would it be correctly characterized as somewhat confrontational? - and Christianity is less analytical in general, the scholarly tradition is certainly deeper in Judaism and of course, Christians believe that Christ was G-d's gift of love and redemption to the world.

I certainly appreciate the differences and to be sure, Judaism is to my mind more complex than Christianity in terms of Scripture interpretation and Law...so I should probably amend my post slightly to reflect that it's a biased concept toward Christianity (although clearly most regular posters here are all-too-aware of my bias toward Christianity)

(And I did)
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Re: Religion Content from Name Thread
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2006, 04:05:34 am »

He always does.

~Paul

Gosh, thanks.  I...I...Don't know what to say...
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