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[pmcd9]

I've been trying to ignore these events because it's way too scary, but it looks like it's really getting out of hand.

I hope by starting this tread I am not igniting a political war on the board, but I was basically wondering if anyone is following this situation closely and what they're thoughts are.

Please be civil.

~Paul

[Doc]

I regret that I didn't follow it more closely as this was developing (recently developing of course, not so much over the last however many years) because it seemed to go from 'Israel hitting Palestine over some soldiers' to 'Israel bombing civilian targets in Lebanon' suprisingly quickly.

Could someone tell me if this flow of events is correct?
Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hezbollah
Israel threatens and follows through on military action
Hezbollah retaliates with rocket attacks against Israeli territory
Everything goes to hell.

If this is how things went I have to find fault with Israel. I'm in no way defending Hezbollah or any other militant group but this I can't justify this kind of carnage over a couple of soldiers. That's assuming Israel struck first though, if there were Hezbollah attacks I am unaware of then that changes the situation.
Where were the soldier's taken hostage anyway? Were they in Israel or lebanon at the time?

The other thing I still don't quite understand is why this is suddenly viewed as world war three? I mean this is pretty terrible but this is an area where brutal attacks and retaliations between broadly the same groups has been going on for quite some time and while we might fear a war would destabilise some natural resources in these countries they are by no means our only source. I just don't fully comprehend the importance so it would help if someone could explain it.

[jough]

Clearly this represents a major shift in U.S. foreign policy.  Whereas previously we kept Israel on a very short leash, apparently we have removed the muzzle and released the hounds.  It makes sense.  We're tied up in Iraq and can't really stretch our resources to flex our dictatorial muscle in other areas of the region, so we loosed Israel on them and of course didn't have to ask them twice.  They've been itching for a little payback for years.

As far as the WWIII talk goes, it's quite possible that eventually one arab nation/faction is going to do something truly horrible to Israel and they're going to respond by nuking an Arab city.  Chaos ensues.

It's gotta be rough to be completely surrounded by people who hate you.  I mean, I live in the U.S. We've got Canada and Mexico as neighbours.  Canada is about the most harmless neighbour a country can have.  They're like the laid back stoner dude next door who always wants to borrow your Weber, but then returns the thing plus a case of beer for your troubles.  Good people.

Mexico is that quiet dude who always seems like such a nice boy.

Anyway, yes, the battle in Lebanon Is Real.  Also, doesn't Lebanon sound like some kind of 12 step programme?

Can I get a high-five?

[AlohaDawg]

The way I see it, Israel is in a no win situation but they've been doing a hell of a job of hanging on in one for 50+ years now geopolitically and several thousand years culturally.

The stated position of Hamas and Hizbollah is the destruction of Israel. The sentiment holds true for Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and most other Arab states but of course they don't say it out loud where the West might hear.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon in the 80's and just finished withdrawing from the Gaza strip and also has been going through an internally painful and strident removal of settlements in disputed areas.

Although some of the Arab players have always stated that this is about land, after Israel gives up more land than at any other time in their history, soldiers are kidnapped and demands made for the mass release of thousands of convicted terrorists.

Syria runs Lebanon and Iran arms it. Iran claims to have Nuclear capability. Iran and Syria and the power elements in Lebanon want Israel destroyed. Given this algebra Israel has no option but to at the least send a clear message that they aren't going to be bullied and that they aren't going to play nice and negotiate before accomplishing real damage to the bad guys. You can agree with it or not but Israel can not survive without a major, credible threat of destruction in their back pocket and they have to flex to threats on their borders and even beyond since the region is so unstable.

It could go bad.

[theinevitable]

it really horrifies me that I have a bizzare love for Israel. maybe because they're kind of underdogs, I don't know. But some part of me thinks that they have to do this to show they won't be pushed around.

however, killing civilians is not cool. They claim they're hitting Hezbollah targets only, and the Lebanese say civilians are being hit... I don't know.

[KeithHernandez]

I don't want to be an ass, but I guess I should say how I feel.

Personally, I don't think Isreal has any right at all to exist.  That is the trouble behind all of this.  I am not anti-Jew or anything, but come on.  The country was made by the allied forces after WWII as some type of repayment to the Holocaust and the fact that the Jews had gone without a home promised by the West for so long.  Irregardless, people lived there already that had nothing to do with the Holocaust, and, obviously, as any one of you would have been, they were/are fuck*ng pissed.

That said, in my relatively small religious knowledge, I know that Islam sees only two types of places in the world:  the sea of peace (countries who follow Islam) and the sea of war (non-Islam practicing areas).  It is a pretty rough situation between the Muslims and Jews, but I see it as the fault of the British (mainly) for being dumb enough to put Isreal in the middle of this in the first place.  Also, quite ironically, during the era's where countries got taken over, the Muslim overlords were much kinder to the non-muslim people in their boundaries than were the Chirstians.


A couple more points.  Do you think the Bush aministration is trying to end the world in a way similar to the Bible?

Isn't it ironic that religion is probably going to be the reason humans destroy the world?

[slink]

Personally, I don't think Isreal has any right at all to exist.  That is the trouble behind all of this.

That's pretty harsh. I mean, I know what you mean, absolutely, but at the same time, it was created because the jews had no home. Two thousand years of wandering around the planet being killed by mad people...
You'd kind of want somewhere you could go home to. What I object to, of course, is them taking the land from the Palestinians and then being utter dicks about it.
So what I'm saying is, I can understand both sides of it. That said, I despair of the way Israel has behaved about Hamas suicide bombings, now Hezbollah, basically everything. The Israeli leadership scare the hell out of me. But then so do the likes of Iran and Syria...
I kind of wish none of it existed, and by that I guess I mean religion. As it's all about this religious claim to that area of the world, and the religious clash between Muslims and Jews. And the religious clash between Muslims and Muslims can be bad enough.

So yea, I can see why Israel happened, but I hate everything they have governmentally stood for. Treating the West Bank as a prison for 40 years, bombing unconditionally, being fuckin assholes. But as I say, by and large I don't have an awful lot of (nigh any) sympathy for Hezbollah either.

[Mite]

I spent a lot of time several years ago researching the Israel/Palestinian conflicts, and trying to figure out who was in the wrong. Then I realized that they all were. I pretty much decided that they've deserved each other, and I'm tempted to say if they want to bomb the hell out of each other over something I can't understand, despite our efforts at peace accords, then hell, let 'em do it. Well, except for the part where now everybody's got nukes.

But what terrifies me is that our government is pro-Israel largely because they believe that the Jews need to hold Israel in order for the end times to come. Our foreign policy is being created around hastening a vision of the apocalypse!


Poll question - what would you do if you were forced to relocate? Say a local native American tribe was given sovereignty over your town or something (just to give an example of an issue near my Dad's house in upstate NY) and you had to move. Would you do it? Put up a fight? What if you had to move out of the country?

I'd move without too much of a fuss in most cases, I think. I've moved a lot in my life, and I have no particular attachment to the scrap of land I currently inhabit, or really any other place in the country.

[slink]

But what terrifies me is that our government is pro-Israel largely because they believe that the Jews need to hold Israel in order for the end times to come. Our foreign policy is being created around hastening a vision of the apocalypse!

I'd move without too much of a fuss in most cases, I think. I've moved a lot in my life, and I have no particular attachment to the scrap of land I currently inhabit, or really any other place in the country.

Yup. See my comments in the religion thread about religious people leading countries. Seems like a mighty bad idea to me personally. Totally different priorities!

And well... I'm not sure as to the latter. See, I feel very strongly that the answer to the worlds problems is to do away with nationalism. OK, keep traditions alive and so forth, as I feel culture is important, but without truly defined nations, religion and money have less importance over geography. Governments wouldn't be doing underhanded business for cash, and things like the Israel situation wouldn't be so likely. It's idealism I know, but hey...
Gogol Bordello say it so well - 'Think locally, fuck globally'.
So, I'd be as tempted to say, 'look, I live here, have done most of my life, what does it matter if you live somewhere else?' But then by the same rules, it doesn't matter where I live either. I'd probably become a nomad to a degree if it were easier to roam around the world the way you want.

[misterqueue]

The entire problem is an attachment to some soil which, one supposes, several people may never have walked.

Hardcore beliefs do not create logical responses as they are emotional triggers really, hence the intense righteous beliefs from all sides (and the overreaction of nearly EVERYone in this conflict.)

Me personally? I'm pretty sure there's an area out in the Dakotas or something were the Jewish people can have their own safe haven.  Hell.. I've got an extra couch, I'll pitch in.  It just doesn't seem worth it to stick it out for that exact spot is all.

[Mite]

And well... I'm not sure as to the latter. See, I feel very strongly that the answer to the worlds problems is to do away with nationalism. OK, keep traditions alive and so forth, as I feel culture is important, but without truly defined nations, religion and money have less importance over geography. Governments wouldn't be doing underhanded business for cash, and things like the Israel situation wouldn't be so likely. It's idealism I know, but hey...

Well yeah, but cultural identities also cause problems. A dude from Wisconsin wouldn't give me (much of) a hard time just for being from Minnesota, but I'd get thoroughly made fun of if I showed up at a bar with a Vikings jacket on. I wouldn't get beat up (well, depends on how drunk everybody is), but I can see how such things escalate.

But if you get rid of all that stuff, then you have John Lennon's ode to communism "Imagine", which almost scares me more than global conflict. If you've got nothing to die for, what have you got to live for, and such.

[jough]

Okay, I don't know about the nation of Israel not existing or anything, but let's face it - the Palestinians were kicked out of their own homeland to make room for the Israelis.  That shit wasn't right, and while the PLO has done a lot of horrible things over the years too, their cause is at least righteous. 

Of course Israel wouldn't have existed if not for the Nazis.  That's not really an issue anymore, though.  Israel is a state and they're surrounded by their enemies.  We supported the formation of Israel and still give them a LOT of aid and support.  They continue to exist because of the U.S.   Without the implied thread of U.S. retaliation the Arab nations would have invaded and decimated Israel a long time ago.

Now, though, Israel is the aggressor.  They're the bad guys in this conflict.  Hezbollah or one of the other many Muslim sects that hates Israel can always cause destruction in retaliation.  It's really easy to blow things up.

So where is this going?  Will there ever be peace in the middle east without one side completely wiping out the other? 

[Turbo Ninja]

But what terrifies me is that our government is pro-Israel largely because they believe that the Jews need to hold Israel in order for the end times to come. Our foreign policy is being created around hastening a vision of the apocalypse!

May a thousand tiny cans light your way to paradise.

This is what I've thought about the whole thing since I learned about Israel/Palestine/Biblical History in high school (I learnt from Jesuits). 

True, the Jews needed a place to go after WWII.  But the only good reason for putting them in Israel as we know it today was because that's what the Bible says is required for Jesus to return and for all the good Christians to go to heaven forever.  It's why the US and France were such strong supporters early on, and it's why the US continues to put up with the geopolitical shenanigans in that part of the world.  AND IT'S ALL BUILT ON THE BIBLE.  Scary.

It's also the reason why Pat Robertson and his generous Fundie Buddies are so big on sending Russian Jews to Israel - all this "selfless generosity" is all rooted in the bizarre desire to have the earthly world brought to an end, Revelations-style.

[slink]

But if you get rid of all that stuff, then you have John Lennon's ode to communism "Imagine", which almost scares me more than global conflict. If you've got nothing to die for, what have you got to live for, and such.

I guess what it comes down to then, is that I wouldn't even consider dying for my country. I am about as sickened with my country as it is possible though, I guess. Unless I lived in the US. I would like to move to another country on political and social grounds (that would be another very long post however).

Sounds like Israel have just called up a few thousand more troops for the IDF. Awsesome... Ugh.
Certainly Israel is now the aggressor, as you point out Jough. The statement from the UN was that Israel should be fighting back with some level of proportionality. Something they have NEVER shown, even against Palestine.

I am feeling confused by this whole thing. I know where I stand (in the middle yelling loudly at both sides to calm down, while as ready as ever to castigate Israel for fuckign war crimes), but at the same time, I am, I guess like Paul said at the start, kind of ignoring it all as it's so far away and so fuck*ng depressing. Every time I see a photo of a dead Lebanese child however I want to go fuck*ng crazy.

I was scared by the report of an overheard conversation between Bush and Blair, in which Bush said he wants Syria to intervene (what the holy FUCK people?!), and Blair was saying strongly that an International force needs to go in, sooner rather than later to stop the fighting. For once I don't want to punch Blair in the face. But seriously, why isn't anyone assassinating your guy?

[Limmo]

I don't want to be an ass, but I guess I should say how I feel.

Personally, I don't think Isreal has any right at all to exist.  That is the trouble behind all of this. 

Too late about that ass part.  Please read this.

Isn't it ironic that religion is probably going to be the reason humans destroy the world?

No more ironic than a black fly in your chardonnay. 

The death wish built into Christianity and Islam make it almost inevitable.  Sigh.