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[Limmo]

Sounds like Israel have just called up a few thousand more troops for the IDF. Awsesome... Ugh.
Certainly Israel is now the aggressor, as you point out Jough. The statement from the UN was that Israel should be fighting back with some level of proportionality. Something they have NEVER shown, even against Palestine.

I was scared by the report of an overheard conversation between Bush and Blair, in which Bush said he wants Syria to intervene (what the holy FUCK people?!)

So Israel is supposed to just sit back and take it?  It's alright for Israeli soldiers to be kidnapped and held hostage? 

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.  They are dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and both Syria and Iran bankroll them.  They are bad for the people of Lebanon, but the Lebanese people have acted as Hezbollah's enablers. 

Bush wanted Bashir Assad to lean on Hezbollah and get them to knock it off.  He wasn't talking about Syria intervening in a military fashion.  Especially since Israel would clean Syria's clock.

I can talk till I'm blue in the face about how bad many of Israel's policies are, and how the Israel lobby wields a disproportionate influence over American politics.  But I can't criticize Israel for taking a stand against a group whose primary purpose for existing is to fuck with Israel. 

[pmcd9]

Some here have asserted that the creation of Israel where it exists was done to hasten the Apocalypse.  I feel that decision was probably more ignorant than devious.  It was probably something like this... Western Leaders: "Hey Jews, were gonna give you some land in the Middle East where you can make a homeland, where would you like to go?"  Jews: (Emphatically) "Jerusalem!"  "Ok, it's yours."  Adviser whispering in the ear "Sir, there is a lot of open space in the Middle East, Jerusalem is holy ground for the Muslims, it would cause a lot of tension if the Jews moved in."  "Fuck a bunch of sand niggers, who cares what those towel heads think.  The Jews want Jerusalem, that's what they'll get.  Haven't they been through enough already?"

Personally, even if I believed that biblical revelation nonesense I wouldn't want it to occur in my lifetime.  Politicians are all about passing on responsibility to the next generation, I would think they would be the same about the Apocalypse.  Can you imagine if the Bible became official policy?  All debates in congress about the levees in New Orleans withstanding a force five locust invasion.  Crazy shit man.

~Paul

[misterqueue]

I think the implication was not that this was the initial reason Israel was created, but moreso why they get such large scale support these days.

Given some of the PACs that are backing current administration heads, I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of mentality moved pretty high up the ladder.

[slink]

So Israel is supposed to just sit back and take it?  It's alright for Israeli soldiers to be kidnapped and held hostage? 

I never said that. I said disproportionate retribution is wrong. Hell, it's illegal.
I don't mind them locking up suicide bombers and not returning them (they were jailed for a reason) but to then drop missiles on civilian's houses is just ridiculous, but then Clinton was happy to do the same in Sarajevo...

[pmcd9]

Please be civil.

I think we're starting to toe the line of uncivility.  Take a step back please.

~Paul

[pmcd9]

You see Hezbollah are kind of like Side Shows neighbors.  Side Show just wants to get along, live and let live, but the nasty neighbors keep fuck*ng shit up.  One of these days Side Show is going to go over there and bash their fuckin' brains out.  They'll be all like, but all I did was piss in your garden.  Yeah, that's all you did today.  It's a cumulative effect.  Then the nasty neighbors will be all like but we were here first.  This neighborhood got along fine before you artsy types started moving in with your rules and civil society and all that shit.  Why don't you go back where you came from...  Side Show will be all I stab you now!!!

~Paul

[KeithHernandez]

Too late about that ass part.  Please read this.

No more ironic than a black fly in your chardonnay. 

The death wish built into Christianity and Islam make it almost inevitable.  Sigh.

C'mon, I take hell of offense to this.  I only drink Shiraz.

But seriously, I couldn't agree with Mite and slink's first two post, especially the Apocalypse stuff.  If I wasn't really drunk at like 3:30 in the morning when I wrote my comment I would have liked it to sound like one of theirs. 

And to answer the real point, I never, ever, ever, feel like countries should take land from other people to give to the nations they are more comfortable with.  That article said there were 100,000 Muslims already in the country that is now Israel.  I would pretty much bet that is the low estimate the writer could find, but even if it isn't, that is 100,000 people who have a right to be very pissed.  You know, I bet some of those people had relatives in other places and also children that raised to hate Israel, which is their right considering the consequences.  This creates hatred for Israel.  But why?  OH, because they took the land from other people to make their country.  Makes sense as far as I see it.  Maybe Israel should be allowed to exist, but my tax dollars should not be used to make nukes to sell to Israel.

Some here have asserted that the creation of Israel where it exists was done to hasten the Apocalypse.  I feel that decision was probably more ignorant than devious.  It was probably something like this... Western Leaders: "Hey Jews, were gonna give you some land in the Middle East where you can make a homeland, where would you like to go?"  Jews: (Emphatically) "Jerusalem!"  "Ok, it's yours."  Adviser whispering in the ear "Sir, there is a lot of open space in the Middle East, Jerusalem is holy ground for the Muslims, it would cause a lot of tension if the Jews moved in."  "Fuck a bunch of sand niggers, who cares what those towel heads think.  The Jews want Jerusalem, that's what they'll get.  Haven't they been through enough already?"

Personally, even if I believed that biblical revelation nonesense I wouldn't want it to occur in my lifetime.  Politicians are all about passing on responsibility to the next generation, I would think they would be the same about the Apocalypse.  Can you imagine if the Bible became official policy?  All debates in congress about the levees in New Orleans withstanding a force five locust invasion.  Crazy shit man.

~Paul

I can totally see that first part happening, but I would not be surprised if since Reagan there has been a push by the "compassionate conservatives" to ruin the world, the way Jesus wants!

You see Hezbollah are kind of like Side Shows neighbors.  Side Show just wants to get along, live and let live, but the nasty neighbors keep fuck*ng shit up.  One of these days Side Show is going to go over there and bash their fuckin' brains out.  They'll be all like, but all I did was piss in your garden.  Yeah, that's all you did today.  It's a cumulative effect.  Then the nasty neighbors will be all like but we were here first.  This neighborhood got along fine before you artsy types started moving in with your rules and civil society and all that shit.  Why don't you go back where you came from...  Side Show will be all I stab you now!!!

~Paul

But if Side Show stole her house from her neighbors, would it not be their garden to piss in?

[pmcd9]

To finish the analogy, Side Shows neighborhood is located nearby Lincoln Center which I assume could substitute for The Wailing Wall for someone in the theatre.  Lincoln Center would also have to be like the best place in the world for low life's to hang out (it may be).

Oh yeah, Side Show has a friend, a really big dumb guy with lots of muscles who will do anything she says.

Ok, now the analogy is complete.

~Paul

[Limmo]

Why did you even start this thread, Paul?  Shit, I was relieved that no one was talking about the Israel/Hezbollah conflict on TOUAMB.  And then you open this can of worms and wonder why people are getting upset. You yourself post shit like this --

"Some here have asserted that the creation of Israel where it exists was done to hasten the Apocalypse.  I feel that decision was probably more ignorant than devious.  It was probably something like this... Western Leaders: "Hey Jews, were gonna give you some land in the Middle East where you can make a homeland, where would you like to go?"  Jews: (Emphatically) "Jerusalem!"  "Ok, it's yours."  Adviser whispering in the ear "Sir, there is a lot of open space in the Middle East, Jerusalem is holy ground for the Muslims, it would cause a lot of tension if the Jews moved in."  "Fuck a bunch of sand niggers, who cares what those towel heads think.  The Jews want Jerusalem, that's what they'll get.  Haven't they been through enough already?"

--and then wonder why people bum out. The creation of Israel actually went a little more like this. ( It probably would have gone better if it went like this, but it didn't. )

Slink: I'm not in favor of civilians dying.  Anywhere.  But it is unfortunate that Lebanon - which has made such great strides over the past decade, culminating in their rejection of Syria in the past year - allows a radical organization to store their weapons in the houses of civilians.  The invasion that Israel is currently preparing is a direct result of Hezbollah's willingness to use civilians as a shield.

I find all of the events transpiring to be utterly horrible.  The photo of Israeli schoolgirls writing messages on artillery shells sickened me.  And yet - Israel is under attack by a despicable Muslim terror organization.  I can't fault Israel for wanting to crush it.

[pmcd9]

Yeah Limmo, I was talking to myself as much as you and slink.  That's why I reframed my posts as a neighborhood dispute between an theatre geek and some smelly crackheads.

I started this thread to get information about the situation.  Figured we could talk about it without getting TOO upset.

~Paul

[Limmo]

I started this thread to get information about the situation.  Figured we could talk about it without getting TOO upset.

~Paul

It's about the most upsetting topic you could bring up right about now, unless if there was suddenly a mass outbreak of Satanic baby rape and cannibalism.*  That would be really upsetting.

I've tried to include relevant links to provide historical background information, rather than being all flame-y, but Mr. Hernandez's posts are kind of grinding my gears a little bit.

* Especially if it were actually Satanic babies doing the raping and cannibalizing.  Good heavens. 

[pmcd9]

I've tried to include relevant links to provide historical background information, rather than being all flame-y, but Mr. Hernandez's posts are kind of grinding my gears a little bit.

Yeah, well he does that to me too, it's his style.  But we've learned to love Mr. Hernandez, he's one of us.

~Paul

[KeithHernandez]

Sorry to do this after Paul all defended me, but it took a while to type, and answers some of Limmo's attacks.  Before his latest comment I was only going to post only the first part.  Then the comment came and I typed all of this, then Paul defended me.  Sorry if I seem confrontational or something, but this is a message board, I think we should be allowed the free exchange of ideas.  If not here where?  I try my very best not to make personal attacks, but my writing style can be hell of self righteous and sarcastic at times.  Sorry, that is just the way I do it. 

Oh yeah, Side Show has a friend, a really big dumb guy with lots of muscles who will do anything she says.

Ok, now the analogy is complete.

~Paul

As long as the analogies are correct. 

It was probably a bad idea to start this though.  I mean, I think we can all admit that both sides are pretty much wrong, or have at least done some shitty stuff each, so then it just goes to how you want to see it.

AFTER LIMMO'S ATTACK:

I've tried to include relevant links to provide historical background information, rather than being all flame-y, but Mr. Hernandez's posts are kind of grinding my gears a little bit.
 

All right, well there goes trying to be fuck*ng compromising and get the thread over with.  You provided a link to a fuck*ng blog. 

Here is the info about the blog creator:

I am an Orthodox Jew - some would even call me 'ultra-Orthodox.' Born in Boston, I was a corporate and securities attorney in New York City for seven years before making aliya to Israel in 1991 (I don't look it but I really am that old :-). I have been happily married to the same woman for nearly twenty-five years, and we have eight children (bli ayin hara) ranging in age from 2 to 22 years. Our eldest is married! Before I started blogging I was a heavy contributor on a number of email lists and ran an email list called the Matzav from 2000-2004. You can contact me at: IsraelMatzav at gmail dot com

[done]

Well, it seems like this is going to be unbiased.

It had such important information as:

But even the name of the Philistines, from which the term "Palestine" was adopted, is completely alien to the Land of Israel.

The name Philistines in Hebrew is plishtim, which comes from the Hebrew verb polshim (foreign invaders).

[done]

Are these the same foreign invaders that built a country on other peoples land and had their friends load them up with nukes? 

If all of your links could tell me how Israels creation is not the root cause of all this, I would like to see it.  That is what I meant when I said Israel should not exist- That the creation of Israel is the root cause of most of the problems we now have.  Maybe Israel has some historical claim to the land, I will not deny that, but since when has that been good enough to actually get to take the land back?  Well, I guess since 1947, actually.


From the Historical roots section of the wikipedia article, it says:

In particular, the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt against the Roman Empire resulted in the large-scale expulsion of Jews. It was during this time that the Romans gave the name Syria Palaestina to the geographic area, in an attempt to erase Jewish ties to the land.[6] The Mishnah and Jerusalem Talmud, two of Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in the region during this period. The Muslims conquered the land from the Byzantine Empire in 638 CE. The area was ruled by various Muslim states (interrupted by the rule of the Crusaders) before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517.
[done]

Well, the Ottomans also conquered Turkey, why don't the Eastern Orthodox get back Constantinople?  Because land changes hands over time, and it is not okay to have fuck*ng big brother step in for you and take it back like 1500 years after it was first conquered.

[theinevitable]

the thing is, if there were only about 100,000 "palestinians" living in the area which is now Israel, who is Hezbollah? Random pissed-off Lebanese guys?

it seems to me that as horrendous as it is, sometimes you need to show an enemy, especially a Terrorist-style enemy, that you mean business. That you won't be pushed around by him anymore.

there was this one scene in the West Wing that explained this really well. Bartlett talked about the Roman Empire, and how no one would ever kill a Roman Citizen. Because they knew that if they did, the whole Roman Army would show up and destroy them.

So, essentially, part of me is saying "come on guys, work it out!" and the other half of me, which I normally don't let out, is glad that they're showing that they just won't take it anymore.

anyone see Munich? I think it showed a pretty balanced view of why this kind of tit-for-tat doesn't work. I suppose I'm contradicting myself now. Lately I am really really interested in this whole situation, and now it's getting Interesting. and with all things I am really interested in, I get so confused that I can't really have a Concise Opinion.

[Limmo]

Sorry if you feel like you’re being ATTACKed, Keith, but if you’re going to publicly state that Israel has no right to exist, you’re going to get some rocks thrown at you.  And you will deserve it.  Deal.

Well, it seems like this is going to be unbiased.

In linking to the blog post, I was trying to provide a viewpoint on how Israelis view their claim to the land.  If you’re going to dismiss that viewpoint simply because it was written by a Jew, then that kind of creates a problem, seeing as how Israel has a lot of, y'know, Jews in it and stuff?

It had such important information as:
But even the name of the Philistines, from which the term "Palestine" was adopted, is completely alien to the Land of Israel.
The name Philistines in Hebrew is plishtim, which comes from the Hebrew verb polshim (foreign invaders).

Are these the same foreign invaders that built a country on other peoples land and had their friends load them up with nukes? 

You answered  this question yourself in your own post. In particular, the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt against the Roman Empire resulted in the large-scale expulsion of Jews. It was during this time that the Romans gave the name Syria Palaestina to the geographic area, in an attempt to erase Jewish ties to the land.
 
If the Jews were expelled from where they already lived by the Romans, then how can they be “foreign invaders”?  And for crying out loud, Keith, what makes you think that nuclear weapons existed back then?

Well, the Ottomans also conquered Turkey, why don't the Eastern Orthodox get back Constantinople?  Because land changes hands over time, and it is not okay to have fuck*ng big brother step in for you and take it back like 1500 years after it was first conquered.

 This brings to mind the words of Cornelius Bear: “That’s all completely stupid, but what does it have to do with anything?”  Your silly attempt to conflate this situation with Constantinople aside, if “land changes hands over time,” as you claim, then why is it wrong for it to change into the hands of the Jews? ( Land, by the way, which was PURCHASED by Jews. )  Or do you have different standards for who gets to benefit from the changing of hands?

If all of your links could tell me how Israels creation is not the root cause of all this, I would like to see it.  That is what I meant when I said Israel should not exist- That the creation of Israel is the root cause of most of the problems we now have. 

Israel’s creation is not the root cause of all this.  Anti-Semitism is the root cause of all this.  

Maybe Israel has some historical claim to the land, I will not deny that, but since when has that been good enough to actually get to take the land back? 

This may be the single dumbest sentence I have ever read.  Listen up, Keith:

Jews are the scapegoats of history.  People have been trying to wipe them out utterly for thousands of years.  There are only 14 million of them left in the world.  Out of six billion people, 14 million Jews.  It stands to reason that they would want to have a place they could call their own, yes?

For them to establish that place in an area that they have considered their Holy Land for 3000 years is a PERFECTLY REASONABLE EXPECTATION, Keith.  Jews bought land in Israel – malaria infested swamps and open desert – and turned it into a place where they could thrive.  

So the Arab population decided in 1936 to – wait for it – expel the Jews from the land that they legally owned!  And this time, the Jews didn’t roll over.  And have consistently defeated every attempt made since then to destroy Israel.

And for that, they are vilified around the world by waterheads like you.  

I’m not going to come right out and call you an anti-Semite, Keith, but I don’t see a whole lot to your arguments other than you don’t like them thar Jews.