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[AugustWest]

Some motherfuckers out there ain't got the memo, I guess - like maybe 80% of 'em?

Which just goes back to my point.  The 20% of us who can read the dang memo oughta be breeding to support literacy!  Fuck an intellectual today!

[Muse_Of_Fire]

Maybe this will make me sound cranky and bitchy, but I feel a need to clarify my position a bit here. I'm getting the sense that people are interpreting my desire not to have children as some sort of criticism against people who do want to have children, and that's not the case. I firmly believe that people who want to have children, should. I also firmly believe that people who don't want to have children, shouldn't and shouldn't be treated as if they are expected to.

I firmly understand and agree with the idea that people who claim to dislike kids/not want to be parents change their opinions once they have children of their own. I have gone through this very thing myself with my niece, nephew, and goddaughter. In my view they are the most perfect beautiful genius children ever birthed. Of course, I like all kids in general also, so this is no huge revelation.

I love children.

Let me repeat that: I love children. Babies, not so much. But children, I love.

I love children, and...

I have no desire to be a parent.

This is a critical distinction.

Being a parent is a lifestyle choice (and probably the most significant one), just like being married or single. There is nothing inherently good or bad about being married or being a parent that make either a requirement to functioning positively and effectively in society. I think being a parent is absolutely the most important job out there, and I admire people who have made that choice and that commitment. It is not a commitment I want.

I also do not feel that I am somehow lowering the collective IQ of humanity by choosing not to breed, when the less enlightened continue to do so. By being an effective educator, I can contribute mightily to the enlightenment of society as a whole and, as a friend puts it, "undo the damage caused by parents." Having my own children will not significantly alter the number of enlightened or unenlightened people out there.

I don't want to rock the boat here necessarily. I'm just really sensitive (perhaps overly so, admittedly) to people who are parents telling me that I should become one simply because it worked out so great for them.

I heartily endorse and support the advice to fuck intellectuals, however. It is a rather enjoyable activity, after all.

[Nabubrush]

Yeah, I should clarify too. I love babies. With drawn butter.

[Sub_Topical]

I firmly believe that people who want to have children, should. I also firmly believe that people who don't want to have children, shouldn't and shouldn't be treated as if they are expected to.

And you'll find there is rampant agreement with you on that exact point from prior discussion. Heck, when I enjoined Cort to chime up earlier it was in expectation of him presenting the precise position he did later in the thread as a sort of contrast.

Bad Cort, took too long to get the hint.

This board has been there on this issue, which is why I start to fuck around with my comments. What I should remember a little more often, however, is that our newer members (heh, members!) may have interesting or unique things to add to the discussion. Or at least provide a little personal backdrop to act as context for there later contibutions.

I in no way want to discourage that.

Yeah, I should clarify too. I love babies. With drawn butter.

Thank youse. Without 'Dawg here I was missing that theme in the conversation.

[AugustWest]

There is nothing inherently good or bad about being married or being a parent that make either a requirement to functioning positively and effectively in society.

 Darwin would disagree.  You aren't contributing your genes to the future of the species.

It is not a commitment I want.

 I didn't either.  I didn't consciously make it, but I'm glad it happened.

I also do not feel that I am somehow lowering the collective IQ of humanity by choosing not to breed, when the less enlightened continue to do so. By being an effective educator, I can contribute mightily to the enlightenment of society as a whole and, as a friend puts it, "undo the damage caused by parents." Having my own children will not significantly alter the number of enlightened or unenlightened people out there.

As much as I value the contribution of educators, I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.  Heredity and environment, right?  Statistically, stupid people are more likely to have stupid offspring.  Smart people are more likely to produce smart spawn.  Stupid people have a lower capacity for education.  As far as one person significantly altering the larger population, what if everyone thought that way?     

I don't want to rock the boat here necessarily. I'm just really sensitive (perhaps overly so, admittedly) to people who are parents telling me that I should become one simply because it worked out so great for them.

Well, it did work out great for me.  Against all odds I have two wonderful daughters.  But that really has nothing to do with what I'm arguing.  I would never try to compel you to become a parent against your will.  I will try to convince you, however.

Seems like there are essentially two arguements against breeding being offered.  A) I'd make a lousy parent.  B) The state of the world sucks too bad to bring children into it.  I don't buy either one.

As to A) at least in the case of the specific individuals this is directed to, I don't really have enough personal info to evaluate the question, but I doubt you're as unfit as you think yourselves.  If you're accepted around here you're most likely a pretty smart and likeable person.  This would indicate that you have what it takes to be a passable parental unit.

B) is just bullshit.  I don't think the world sucks any more or less than it ever did.  Plus, having children could have a positive effect on human society.  Abstaining could tilt the balance the other way.

Finally, please understand that I'm just spouting off here.  I really don't care whether or not you spawn little muses.  I just live for the thrill of the argument, dang it!

[linnea]

I don't want to rock the boat here necessarily. I'm just really sensitive (perhaps overly so, admittedly) to people who are parents telling me that I should become one simply because it worked out so great for them.

Quoted for truth. There's nothing wrong with being child-free.

Personally, I think that it would be great to have children someday... but damn that's a lot of work, not to mention the fact that I had a pretty rough childhood and I'm terrified of not being a good parent. Very few people can afford a nanny or even someone to come in once a week to do some housework. For example, it's nice to have a life where I can sleep late on weekends, where I don't have to hide the contraband unless company comes over and even then it just gets shoved under the bed, and I don't have to worry about anyone falling and slicing their head open on the coffee table. If it's one of my dumbass drunk friends, well guess who's gonna get to give them stitches at the clinic??? ME. FUCK YEAH.

Maybe I'll be ready to have kids in another 10 years? Who knows.

[littlefallsmets]

My only additional comment would be...

There seems to be a sort of an "it's acquired taste, just try it enough times and you'll eventually like it" angle in some of the arguments toward parenting and... I can't completely buy that, at least for me.

I have tried whiskey dozens of times. It never got mellow or smooth or anything like that for me. It pretty much kept tasting like lighter fluid with a little caramel mixed in. Whiskey isn't going to be an acquired taste to me, no matter how many times I keep trying to like it.

I have seen and smelled and been quite-near many preparations of lobster and had dozens of people tell me how awesome lobster is and... nah, I'm pretty much never gonna try lobster. It smells weird and it is a damn water spider, people.

I don't care if it tastes like popcorn Jelly Belly beans and Coca-Cola with Actual Cane Sugar at once.

It is a damn water spider.

Also, I have never and will never engage in butt sex. Giving or receiving, with a lady, with another dude, with toys, nope. I am pretty sure I'm not gonna like butt sex. I understand and respect that some people get WAY the hell off on butt sex.

That's fine and, man, as long as you aren't making me look, have all the butt sex you want.

You completely have my permission to have butt sex.

But I am completely certain that even if I tried getting poop involved with The Sex Act dozens of times, I would never come around to liking it... even though there are many people who are just gaga for the whole affair.

The problem is that... some people get all weird about this claim, you know? They're like "oh, so you're looking down on me for liking butt sex, huh? YOU'D LOVE IT, YOU'RE JUST A SQUARE, SERIOUSLY THE MOMENT YOU SLIP YOUR c*ck INTO A BUTT YOU WILL COME CRYING BACK TO ME! YOU WILL DEMAND I FORGIVE YOU FOR DOUBTING BUTT-SEX! Well, don't beg to me, man. I can't forgive you! ONLY BUTT-SEX CAN FORGIVE YOU! BEG BUTT-SEX FOR FORGIVENESS! BEG IT!"

And... that ain't it. That ain't it at all.

I am completely happy for you and your butt sex. I am not judging you. I am not judging butt-sex.

It just ain't for me.

P.S. in this analogy, babies are roughly equivalent to butt-sex.

[pmcd9]

Well, it did work out great for me.  Against all odds I have two wonderful daughters.

I would just like to collaborate this statement.  I've met Frank's daughters and they are awesome people.

[Nabubrush]

Seems like there are essentially two arguements against breeding being offered.  A) I'd make a lousy parent.  B) The state of the world sucks too bad to bring children into it.  I don't buy either one.

As to A) at least in the case of the specific individuals this is directed to, I don't really have enough personal info to evaluate the question, but I doubt you're as unfit as you think yourselves.  If you're accepted around here you're most likely a pretty smart and likeable person.  This would indicate that you have what it takes to be a passable parental unit.

B) is just bullshit.  I don't think the world sucks any more or less than it ever did.  Plus, having children could have a positive effect on human society.  Abstaining could tilt the balance the other way.

Finally, please understand that I'm just spouting off here.  I really don't care whether or not you spawn little muses.  I just live for the thrill of the argument, dang it!

c) I don't like children. They are noisy, they smell really bad at times, various fluids and solids come spewing out of them at inopportune times, and they interfere with my drinking.

[slink]

c) I don't like children. They are noisy, they smell really bad at times, various fluids and solids come spewing out of them at inopportune times, and they interfere with my drinking.

A can for you, sir.
Though it must be added, they also interfere with travel and funtime (of various varieties) which is why they're on my no-go list.

[side_show]

D) I'm happy with my life the way it is and see no reason for changing that.

[wombat]

There seems to be a sort of an "it's acquired taste, just try it enough times and you'll eventually like it" angle in some of the arguments toward parenting and... I can't completely buy that, at least for me.

Yeah, well, you can't exactly try it and then return it and get your money back if you don't like it.

Also I think babies are a little fatty to eat with butter. Something to cut the grease like cocktail sauce or mustard would be better.

[Nabubrush]

Yeah, well, you can't exactly try it and then return it and get your money back if you don't like it.

Also I think babies are a little fatty to eat with butter. Something to cut the grease like cocktail sauce or mustard would be better.

I . . . I think I love you.

[wombat]

Oh, you say that to all the girls.

[Sub_Topical]

What happened to the love, you guys?

These internet things fade to rosy memories so fast...