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[KeithHernandez]

And actually, A-CAP and Asherdan wouldn't like it because it would raise taxes, even if they could choose.

Also, Dawg, you work for the post office right?  And you get your health care from work right?  And you have better health care then the average american right?  And the post office is run by the government right? (that second one is an educated guess.)

[Arachno-capitalist]

And actually, A-CAP and Asherdan wouldn't like it because it would raise taxes, even if they could choose.

Also, Dawg, you work for the post office right?  And you get your health care from work right?  And you have better health care then the average american right?  And the post office is run by the government right? (that second one is an educated guess.)

yea, and Senators get amazing healthcare run by the government, but that could, would, and will never be implemented on the mass level.

[jaydub]

I think my number one issue is to lessen our dependence on foreign oil.

My feelings are similar.

[Arachno-capitalist]

What do you all propose that is as cheap, as efficient, as abundant as oil? Because if that existed, we'd be using it.

[AugustWest]

What do you all propose that is as cheap, as efficient, as abundant as oil? Because if that existed, we'd be using it.

No shit, Sherlock.

Are you suggesting that our dependence on oil benefits us geo-politically?  Or helps the environment? 

Yes, the status quo is the way it is for a reason.  That doesn't mean we should be satisfied with the situation or, worse yet, complacent.

[Arachno-capitalist]

Oh no, it is not beneficial to us so far as I can tell. I think the Saudis have us by the balls. But I don't blame "oil" as a substance. I'm really glad I can drive my car and I thank the oil companies that bring it to my corner of the globe in Farmville, VA for a couple bucks a gallon. I'm amazed at how cheap it is.
If there was some substance we could all grow in our closets for free that would run our cars, ambulances, buses, planes, and ships, then I'd be all for it.
I just don't think its fair to criticize something without offering any kind of practical solution at all.

[theinevitable]

man, you are real worried about Oil's feelings.

[Doc]

I mean generally the first step in finding a solution is identifying a problem. Being all 'You have no solution so you are wrong to point out the problem' is hell of unhelpful.
Besides, I think everyone explicitly said 'our dependence on oil' so no one is picking on oil specifically, we know we're the ones who have the problem.

[Carlos del Vaca]

OK, time to take two steps back. This is how is starts!!

Look, I just don't like people arguing against points that someone else didn't actually make.  I also don't like the "If it's not perfect, it's not worth even trying!" defeatist bullshit.

[theinevitable]

Besides, I think everyone explicitly said 'our dependence on oil' so no one is picking on oil specifically, we know we're the ones who have the problem.

Man, I feel like you're blaming the victim here.
Sure, it was fun back in the day... we had our whole lives to live, experimenting with different kinds of power... but now we're hooked, and the dope fossil fuel peddlers keep on pushing.

...but seriously, I feel like we need to up regulation of environmental abuse. The analogy I like to make to people who say "it's my choice what kind of car I drive, fuck you" is that, well, it's your choice to own a dog, and it's my right to tell you to keep its shit out of my yard. Once you start up your hummer, you're pumping your car's shit out into the air we all breathe, and it's not quite as easy to use a pooper-scooper to remove carbon monoxide from the atmosphere. Maybe I'm stretching, but I don't think it's too far. This really isn't an issue of infringing on individual rights-- as they say, "you have the right to swing your fist as much as you please, until it hits someone else's nose."

[Arachno-capitalist]

Man, I feel like you're blaming the victim here.
Sure, it was fun back in the day... we had our whole lives to live, experimenting with different kinds of power... but now we're hooked, and the dope fossil fuel peddlers keep on pushing.

This is the kind of stuff im talking about. You dont really believe that we use oil because some corporations say we have to, do you? You do understand that if there was something cheaper, cleaner, and more efficient, another company would exploit the shit out of that, right?

[theinevitable]

I mean... I was kidding.

I feel like we're to blame, but there's certainly some evidence that fossil fuel companies have worked to discourage alternative forms of transportation (wasn't there some business with a gasoline company buying the trolleys in some city and dismantling them?)

[Doc]

I think we all get that arachnocapitalist, but I'd also put forward that if we are going to find a better alternative we need money to find and develop it and most of the people with the big money (and importantly the expertise in the energy sector) are pretty happy with how the world is running right now (why wouldn't they be? It's the world that enabled them to make so much money). So the people who are in the best position to fix our problem are generally acting as if there is no problem and in some cases are doing their best to convince people this is the case (which I guess costs them less then investing in research).

"I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine" right? If a company is knowingly causing harm when it is within their power to help search for an alternative (or at the very least not try to discredit others who are) that sounds like them wanting the rest of the world to live and die for their benefit.

[Arachno-capitalist]

So according that argument, we would never have had cars in the first place. I mean, the hoss and buggy makers had all the money, right? Why would anyone have invested in a car if the hoss and buggy is where all the money was?
Why would anyone have invested in oil? That stuff is really expensive to find and produce and transport and refine and pump. The whale blubber dudes had all the money right? Why do we need oil when obviously whale blubber was where the money was?

[Doc]

Come on man, you're better than that.
To put my point more simply: We will move past oil, I think this is more or less inevitable and will ultimately benefit us. We could be doing this faster if oil companies did not engage in destructive protectionism of their current business model. Ideally they could be instrumental in getting us to that next stage since they have more money and expertise than anyone else in the energy sector but I'd settle for them not tearing down the people they choose to see as their opponents too.