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Author Topic: Inauguration is Historic  (Read 14686 times)

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Ruta Bagas

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2009, 01:27:46 am »

What the fuck difference here wouldn't be semantic?

Seriously, though, that's a ridiculous comment. I've never proselytized (for atheism, anyway) but I'm definitely atheist.

jay-ell

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2009, 02:40:38 am »

Sometimes Christians hate people because they're non-Christian.  Some Christians -- and I use Christians as an example here because I want to pick on a group I belong to -- use their beliefs as an excuse to treat other people like crap.  Some Christians assume that everyone who believes in something else is deluded, amoral, or just plain hell-bound.  None of these traits are inherent to Christianity -- they are traits of the individuals who express them, not the whole group. 

Any belief, in the hands of the wrong person, can be turned against others.  Even the belief that there is no God -- or the absence of belief that there is one -- has acquired a culture of its own.  And that culture has developed into an "us vs them" dichotomy that defines itself by what it isn't.  And in the wrong hands -- and I am not saying anyone here is "the wrong hands" -- atheism is sometimes used to belittle religion in general and (in this country) Christianity in particular. 

Some atheists shake their heads in bemusement at Christians' "misguided" beliefs, our "superstitions."  Some atheists think we must be either incredibly gullible or incredibly desperate for a "higher purpose" in our otherwise meaningless lives.  Some atheists view participation in any religion as a sign of low intelligence or emotional frailty.  And by declaring themselves decidedly "NOT," some atheists think they are above gullibility, desperation, foolishness, and frailty.  One of my best friends (who describes herself as "agnostic on a good day") still sometimes displays an air of self-righteousness (if you'll pardon the phrase) with regard to her non-belief.  My connection to my religion is a thing she Doesn't Get, therefore, at times, it is a thing she Doesn't Value. 

Furthermore, Christians are often labeled as "right-wing," "intolerant," "close-minded," "gay-bashing," etc.  Yet how many times have I heard my atheist friends disparage someone as a "fundamentalist wacko" because that person attends church on a weekly basis?  Don't you think I get tired of hearing complaints about how "the Christians" are ruining this country?  How many times have I tried not to argue with someone who makes the off-hand comment that Prop 8 failed because of "those gay-hating Christians?" 

Oh, we don't mean you, they say.  You're not a gay-hating Christian, you're one of the good ones.  You're educated. 

Right.  Reminds me of when my grandmother talks about her African-American neighbors.  "They're [redacted], but they're good [redacted].  Very clean." 

I don't walk around with a WWJD bracelet on my wrist or a Gideon Bible in my pocketbook, ready to thump at a moment's notice.  I support gay marriage and would support a constitutional amendment to guarantee it.  I support comprehensive sex education in public schools, and I even support the right of schools to teach evolution in science classes.  Yet often, people assume I'm part of the "Christian right" simply because I happen to believe in God, the Father almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, and in Jesus Christ, his Son, our Lord. 

So can someone explain to me why it's become the norm among non-Christians to associate Christianity with ignorance and intolerance?  Because I don't remember this Jesus guy suggesting that we all try not to read too many books and avoid people who are different from us.  Kind of the opposite, actually. 

I wish the vocal minority of Christians who also do happen to be intolerant idiots would just sit the hell down and shut the hell up so that those of us with both a brain and a conscience -- and here I include Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Wiccans, Jedi, and everyone else -- can work together on figuring out what kind of place we want this country to be. 

But not the Scientologists.  Those guys are right out. 
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wombat

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2009, 02:56:50 am »


So can someone explain to me why it's become the norm among non-Christians to associate Christianity with ignorance and intolerance? 

Um. Because the asshole wing of Christianity has done such a good job of becoming influential in powerful places, and of prominently advocating imposing its views on others?

I also often can't figure out why people are such idiots about certain things that are obvious if you know the least bit of background, but... well, if the only pit bulls that get into the news are the ones that bite, it's no wonder people think all pit bulls bite. If people don't have experience of the other kind or information about them, you can't really blame them for believing the bad stuff that they hear again and again and again.
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jay-ell

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2009, 03:04:55 am »

Um. Because the asshole wing of Christianity has done such a good job of becoming influential in powerful places, and of prominently advocating imposing its views on others?

I also often can't figure out why people are such idiots about certain things that are obvious if you know the least bit of background, but... well, if the only pit bulls that get into the news are the ones that bite, it's no wonder people think all pit bulls bite. If people don't have experience of the other kind or information about them, you can't really blame them for believing the bad stuff that they hear again and again and again.

So, atheists and agnostics are so insular that their only exposure to Christianity comes in the form of the hate-mongering blowhards on TV? 
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lprkn

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2009, 03:10:50 am »

As I find myself drifting away from my right wing fundamentalist roots into waters of a more decidedly godless liberal clime, I've definitely come to regard any sort of high-handed snootiness from any side. It's kind of startling to be told by an online quiz that you're an atheist liberal if you hadn't really regarded yourself that way.

I can buy that whole insular thing to a certain extent, especially in today's society. You can basically tailor your information sources so that they reflect the "Daily Me." As long as you hang out with people who share your views, it's pretty easy to come off as an asshole people you come in contact with who do not share your worldview.

Um, what Jadles said for the most part.
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AugustWest

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2009, 03:19:44 am »

So, atheists and agnostics are so insular that their only exposure to Christianity comes in the form of the hate-mongering blowhards on TV? 

Like it or not, those hate-mongering blowhards on TV (and in Congress, the military and corporate boardrooms) are the face of Christianity today.  As we often ask about the Islamic world -- why don't the moderates stand up to the radicals?

Personally, I don't care if you believe in God the father, maker of heaven and earth, Zoroaster or the fuck*ng Thetans.  I care about how you treat your fellow man.  I have known fundamentalist Christians whose beliefs I consider pretty primitive for whom I have the greatest respect.  I have likewise known people with very sophisticated personal philosophies that aren't worth pissing on.

Religions (or lacks thereof) are like assholes.  Everybody's got one.  As far as I've been able to tell a person's professed theism/atheism, gnosticism/agnosticism, sect, scepticism, spiritual path, ethos or whatever bears little or no relation to their goodness.
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wombat

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2009, 03:29:55 am »

Unfortunately, we live in a world where if you repeat something loudly and often enough, it counts as the truth. Like it or not, if you don't play that game, the ones who play it well get to represent who you are.
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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2009, 03:42:34 am »

I was originally writing this post generally but it ended up getting kind of long and being mainly directed at JL, I'm not trying to get all personal or anything though, you're just the only person fighting the other side of this argument today (where is AD lately anyway?).

With that disclaimer, JL:
I think I said this in the last religiony thread we had but the people I'd term evangelical atheists (I'm thinking particularly here of Richard Dawkins and anyone who has a blog with 'godless' 'skeptic' or 'fundie' in the title) are douchebags who are just as bad as any other group that judges/dismisses people based on a single data point. I think they make the rest of us (not that there is a 'rest of us' since it's ridiculous to group people together due to a lack of belief) look like militant pseudo-cultish assholes and I avoid talking about religion with them just as much as I avoid speaking about it with my 94 year old 7th day adventist great uncle (who was terribly disappointed that the world didn't end in 2004 when he thought it would).
If the type of atheists you are talking about JL have a single 'belief' it's not that THERE IS NOT A GOD it's that PEOPLE WHO THINK THERE IS A GOD ARE JERKS/MORONS/CRIMINALS. This is demonstrably incorrect but they take it, I imagine, on faith.

I really, really have to call bullshit on the 'belief in no God is a belief' thing though, even though Ruta and Wombles have already commented on it. I do not share your belief in a Higher Power an Afterlife or a Creator because I have seen no evidence of it that can't be explained in a way that fits with the physical, testable world that we all experience (and please no one say that if I've made up my mind I'll only see evidence that supports my point of view, apart from anything else that argument cuts both ways so hard I can use it to butter my Jesus toast).

My point is that when someone has a 'belief' that strong if has a dramatic effect on how they live their life. Not having this belief does not affect my life in any way (except I guess, the side I take in these arguments). There are plenty of things I do not do that religious people do but there's nothing I do in my life based purely on the 'belief' that no God exists. I think of myself as having the basic life package and religous people have taken the 'God Lovin' upgrade.

I choose to live my life on the assumption that I only get one go around there's nothing afterwards and my own internal reasoning and experience is the best gauge I have for what is moral and what isn't. This is the same line of reasoning that tells me not to buy a speedboat in the belief that I'm winning the lottery this thursday. It's possible I'll win the lottery but the odds are so far against it that this would not be a sensible way to live my life.

So, sorry I took so long to try and get my point across but no I do not believe in the lack of God I am just yet to see any reason to have believe in existence of one. It is not something I take on faith, it is something I challenge at every opportunity, I'm just yet to have my mind changed. When it is I'll let you know.

Swerving to the other thing: I am sorry that people tend to throw all religous people in the 'crazy fundie' bucket these days, I think this might be more of an American thing, people I know tend to be fairly easy going about religion but Australia doesn't really have such a strong evangelical movement to stir up a counter movement, we're all pretty much lapsed catholics or lapsed anglicans (with a few lapsed greek orthodox, muslims and buddhists for good measure). Though, as Ruta said, the jerks are the ones that get all the publicity. The same way people like Dawkins (I imagine) fuel your impression that all atheists treat lack of God as a 'Belief'.

Edit: I think I like the way AW said it better but I'm leaving this hear now because dammnit I took half my lunchbreak writing it.
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miles

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2009, 04:24:20 am »

I had no idea we had so many bona fide atheists on the board.

Even though I was raised in a very religious household I have the same reaction when I find out someone I associate with is a believer--especially when I'm dating that person. And I'm always shocked when someone is shocked that I'm not, even though I'm clearly in the minority.

On that note, does anyone here believe that the world is going to end in 2012? One of my after work beer buddies thinks it's a real possibility. I was a bit floored. He's pretty well grounded, and I guess because we have very similar academic interests I always assumed he wouldn't consider something like that. But again, maybe I'm blindly in the minority.
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Lister

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2009, 04:34:53 am »

As soon as I see Christians fighting to have their beliefs separated from the vast majority of church leaders who actively participated in denying my rights this past November, I'll stop putting them in the same category.
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2009, 05:39:03 am »

Quote from: wombat
Atheists are the last group that it's still OK to hate in the US.

That and fat people. I say this as a pudgy agnostic.

I'm not an atheist, I'm entirely open to the idea of a higher power or another life or a hidden reality. Shit, I long for any of these things. Like Fox Mulder, a dude wants to believe. Like Fox News, a dude sees the man behind the curtain peddling lies for dollars. I also haven't seen a whit of evidence toward any of these things.

Anecdotes of wishful thinking, the hallucinations of the temporarily or permanently ill, confidence schemes. The vastest majority, confidence schemes. Oh Christ, if it was mostly madness or hope, I could live with it so much easier. Not to say that aren't true believers but holy shit, swing a dead cat in a room with any one true believer and you'll hit fifteen smiling bastards trying to make a buck off of that hope... or trying to fuck it... or trying to get it to kill in their name.

Show me a divinity that no one could ever manage to make a power play in the name of and I'll at least tip my hat to it.

Also, I don't wear hats. Make you prematurely bald, you know.

I dunno. If there's another reality, it seems to me that it would be by definition inexpressable in this one. The whole gig "religion" just seems so fuck*ng presumptuous to me. Even if you yourself touched the face of otherworldly grace for true and real and certain, how could you ever transmit that in this world's meanings to anyone else? I want to believe but I can't whittle down my burden of proof, just to get to the point where I can believe in something.

There are people out there trying to turn a buck on atheism, too, I guess that's why I've my doubts on it as well.

There was an old Janeane Garofolo bit on "Dr. Katz" and... I don't remember it well... but it was about the idea of staying in your hometown and marrying the person who had the locker next to you in the seventh grade. Throwing a blanket over your head, you know, and declaring all your options closed forever. Religion has always felt like that to me. Its almost worse if there's Something Else. If there's Nothing, the way religion corrupts us and rules us and kills us inside, it's a sublime gag, maybe the best joke ever written. Cruel poetry.

But if there IS Something and we're binding ourselves inside and killing each other in the pursuit of It, holy Christ, that's the saddest thing.
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theinevitable

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2009, 05:44:36 am »

I totally would love to believe in God, but I cannot. At all. To a point that... I feel like I am being a jerk.

I can't make statements about God without giggling or smirking.

I have a lot of trouble with this, because I find the culture of religion really interesting and powerful... but when I actually think "these people literally believe that there is a God all around us who sent his son to us etc" I just... can hardly even take it seriously. And I know that that makes me a douche.

Like, I want to be respectful and tolerant. But I also think that it doesn't sound so different from any old story. I can go to a religious service and feel moved by it, by the emotions and the messages of a greater good and the need for us to help each other... but when I remember that it's all about God's Son I believe in it a little less.

This kind of links back around to how I feel about our new President. I get that same feeling from him, except... I really do believe in America. It's real. It is all around me and I was holding back tears for large portions of that day.

Um, should I post my DC stories here?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 05:48:38 am by theinevitable »
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jaydub

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2009, 06:27:06 am »

Surely DC stories have more relevance to the title than a digression to the merits of/oppression of atheism.
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Doc

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2009, 06:42:34 am »

Even though I was raised in a very religious household I have the same reaction when I find out someone I associate with is a believer--especially when I'm dating that person. And I'm always shocked when someone is shocked that I'm not, even though I'm clearly in the minority.

On that note, does anyone here believe that the world is going to end in 2012? One of my after work beer buddies thinks it's a real possibility. I was a bit floored. He's pretty well grounded, and I guess because we have very similar academic interests I always assumed he wouldn't consider something like that. But again, maybe I'm blindly in the minority.

I'm kind of like this, but then for the last couple of years I've been working with scientists where atheism tends to be the norm. I was actually quite surprised when I found out that my lab manager is very active in her church. She does have near divine powers of organisation and saintly patience of academic and beauracratic BS though.

People actually believe the 2012 thing? I've been repeating it lately because that's when I finish my degree (also the last year of Obama's first term I think?) so it has taken on new and worrying significance.
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Doc

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Re: Inauguration is Historic
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2009, 06:48:36 am »

Um, should I post my DC stories here?

Yes definitely, for once an off topic thread needs to be corrected.
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