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[Ben-San]

My own personal faith certainly extends beyond "G-d is love" but I think that Christians do have a fundamentally different relationship with God than that of Jews - would it be correctly characterized as somewhat confrontational? - and Christianity is less analytical in general, the scholarly tradition is certainly deeper in Judaism and of course, Christians believe that Christ was G-d's gift of love and redemption to the world.

I would not characterize it as confrontational. It's hard for me to be specific about the differences because any terms I could use with regard to the Jewish religious experience would, I think, be very easy to misinterpret from a Christian perspective, and it is the kind of thing where a misunderstood word could cause a lot more confusion than a lack of statement. I think that in this regard we are speaking seperate languages which are largely but not entirely mutually intercomprehensible.

[pmcd9]

For clarification, after reading over my original post in this thread I didn't state my position as clearly as I had hoped.  I never intended to call anyone (AD and Ben in particular) who has faith full of shit, it's only when you try to provide proof of something that is unprovable do you become subject to mockery in my opinion.  Both AD and Ben have been clear that their is no proof for their faith and I respect that.  It's people who conjure up invisible holy atoms to explain transubstantiation that give me a good chuckle.  I mean really, can't we have a laugh at things that are patently absurd?  Have we become that sensitive here?  Do you support this invisible holy atoms theory Dawg?  Do you believe that the bananna being a nice fit for your mitt is proof of intelligent design?  Do you believe that evolution is science fiction? I'll reiterate, I have respect for people of faith, but these examples aren't faith, it's trying to pass off hogwash as proof which is really the antithesis of faith.

~Paul

[Doc]

Although an omnipotent being doesn't have to have downtime if he doesn't want to, more or less by definition.

This just goes back to where I have trouble with the whole concept, if G(totha)D exists in any way we understand the term then it is a being many orders of magnitude beyond our ability to comprehend and so all these stories we've come up with relating to that being (I say stories because even if they are based on truth a few thousand years of being handed down means there must be a decent dollop of creative interpretation in there) just don't ring true to me because they involve trying to represent something that should be basically incomprehensible by human standards.

And Paul is right as usual, this thread had more to do with laughing at the silly things people do because of their faith than mockery of faith itself. I don't think AD (sorry to single you out man but you did the splitting) was offended by this but just split it off as a pre-emptive move in case it went somewhere more controversial which had the effect of people thinking he was offended and feeling the need to justify their position which ended up sapping all the humour out the whole situation.

[Ben-San]

This just goes back to where I have trouble with the whole concept, if G(totha)D exists in any way we understand the term then it is a being many orders of magnitude beyond our ability to comprehend and so all these stories we've come up with relating to that being (I say stories because even if they are based on truth a few thousand years of being handed down means there must be a decent dollop of creative interpretation in there) just don't ring true to me because they involve trying to represent something that should be basically incomprehensible by human standards.

Well, they're attempting to represent the interactions of such a being with humans. Nowhere in the Torah, at least, is there any attempt to inform us of how God's mind works or why God wants the things He does. A human's motivations might be incomprehensible to a dog, but the dog will (or at least can) learn that the human does want the stick fetched and doesn't want the rug pooped on even if he doesn't understand why.

Also, Paul, I agree those dudes are hell of wacky. They do not understand the distinction between faith and science.

[jough]

After reading this thread, Ben-San, you're right - you are kind of ridiculous.  Happy now?

AlohaDawg - of course we're friends and I still don't "get" people's (blind) faith in God, but I'm of course also a human and therefore not completely faithless.  I believe in gravity even though I can't see it.  I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, etc.  I believe in love and vendetta.

But I can't trick myself into believing something that makes no sense to me.  Some people can.  I can't.  I tried.  I would like to know what the TRUTH is but I fear it's unknowable.  And some of you may be right.  Maybe everybody's wrong.  My point is that we don't know, and we can't know (maybe, or else we just don't know YET) and I have to admit I get a little angry and annoyed at people who claim that they DO know something that is inherently unknowable. 

I will however continue to keep an open mind to new ideas about the nature of my existence.  Maybe one of them will make sense to me some day.

Of course, since I'm overweight I don't have the right to exist in your mind anyway, so the point of an afterlife is moot, no?

[Ben-San]

After reading this thread, Ben-San, you're right - you are kind of ridiculous.  Happy now?

I am indeed ridiculous but not for the reason you think. Most of the posts I've made in this thread, I typed with no ##### on.

But I can't trick myself into believing something that makes no sense to me.

Holy shit is that ever not what you should be doing. Believe what you believe, that's cool. Like I said.. you don't choose what you believe, I didn't either. Trying to force yourself into believing something is a dysfunction of faith.

[theinevitable]

you typed all of this with no *****s on? man. that is intense. I never have any *****s on.

did you formerly have a tattoo of a *****?

[AlohaDawg]

Of course, since I'm overweight I don't have the right to exist in your mind anyway, so the point of an afterlife is moot, no?

Oh, that one. Talk about a thread out of control. I think you won't be that way forever. You're a stubborn SOB.

Paul, I don't subscribe to any theories like that because I don't believe we are meant to understand such things, and also because I believe that transubstantiation is sort of 'theatre of the mind' type stuff. Our Pastors taught us that there are mysteries of faith and we should accept some things as simple truth.

The whole concept of tricking oneself into believing is really interesting to me. I would have to be tricked out of it! Some believe that is the role of evil in the world - to get people away from G-d. There are also many people who believe Hell isn't actually some hot stinky burny place with demons and Friendly's and Subaru Brats, but actually the state of being wholly separated from G-d.

[slink]

You know I think you're an awesome guy AD, and if religion is even partly responsible for that, great. I am certainly not attempting to bully in disagreeing with your belief about an omnipotent deity however. I just don't believe in it and have an inquisitive mind.
What I do find scary is the extent to which religious people do feel victimised by atheists. Not merely christians. Look at the reaction to apostates in the muslim world. Hell, look at the reactions to heretics a couple of hundred years ago in christianity. From the outside, the US seems still like a christian-centric country, and for atheists to not be allowed to air their views based on the reactions... The atheists in the US media I know of have all received death threats merely for admitting they are atheists, let alone those who discuss religion as I do. If we're supposed to be all loving each other unconditionally, well, surely the religious right should be following that one to the letter?
As I say, particularly here, this is not about you AD.
It doesn't feel comparable really, but when strongly religious people tell me I'm insane for being an atheist, it has little to no effect on how I feel. But I can understand why it would be worse the other way around. I think...
As an agnostic (and even still really), I didn't have any problem with religion, merely the organisation of religion. Since at that point it clearly stops being about the religion for those in control. It's things like this religious leadership (for me religion was, and seems more personal than that anyway) and the reaction to non-believers that scares me about religion. A religious person is going to make decisions based on different criteria to an atheist in certain circumstances, and yet there's no distinction (I agree for very good reasons) when people take the reigns of power. A religious person is most likely going to make a decision based on very different criteria about say abortion. Now that's a doozy I admit, but how about wars. Are you going to feel worse letting people die, believing the way they lived their lives will dictate whether they go to Heaven or Hell? Or in believing that that's it? Once they're dead they're dead.

And certainly, if I see you waiting at the pearly gates before I ship on down to Hell, like Jough, I will perfectly gladly admit how wrong I was. I am proud to have my own beliefs, and to be sure of them, but I am not proud of the fact that I believe there to be no God. I have oft times desired to be able to have faith in a god.
So basically all this rambling was from me wanting to say, I think religious people need to start not being bothered by atheists denouncing their gods. It seems like a slippery slope towards partisan everything (religious peoples drinking tap, non-religious peoples drinking tap, I jest). That and do I need to even mention how many wars have been started by religion? I guess, if atheists can be thick enough skinned to live knowing they are all on their own, why can't religious people be thick enough skinned to ignore other people's beliefs and be sure in their own?

And not try to make us feel like dicks for speaking about our beliefs in earshot, kind of like how it has to be the other way round at the moment.

[smick]

I feel it's bullying for anyone to call bullshit what I feel the core of my identity is. ... Casting disparaging commentary on something that important is basically telling me you don't like me. Certain it's telling me there is no respect for my values and feelings.

I can totally understand that.   I'm not seeing that as a two way street these days.  I know you are not an example of this, but many in your faith use statements of your faith to belittle anyone who disagrees.   There's a lot of "persecuted majority" behavior coming from Christians.  I know some of the blow back you'll see from me comes from that.

Is it fair?  Not really. 

I don't speak of my religion openly, and I've been looking at why.   I've told myself that it's because it's no one's business.  It isn't, and I've been happy with that.   But after some introspection, it is because if no one knows my core beliefs, they cannot be held suspect, or belittled. 

Currently my employer is a staunch Christian, I'm certain that he would not extend to me, the same courtesy that I've extended to him in regards to his beliefs.

That's just not right.   

[Carlos del Vaca]

Dude, God is faithful and he loves us. That's the point, is that he always holds up his end of the bargain. He's not the one who keeps fuck*ng up. We're the ones who wage war and do other terrible stuff.

Swing by the Children's Hospital, and tell me what's going on with all those sick kids then.

Slink raises good points, and they are echoed by a blogger whose work on religion I greatly enjoy.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2006/07/down_on_a_muffi.html

In America, you are free to decide that God (or L. Ron Hubbard, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) wants you to wear a burka. Those of us with a more egalitarian view of gender roles are free to disagree with this choice,*** but we cannot compel you to stop wearing your burka. You have the freedom even to restrict your own freedom voluntarily.

But illiberal evangelicals are rarely satisfied with voluntarily restricting their own freedoms, they want to make such restrictions compulsory for everyone.

"What good does it do me," they ask, "to choose to wear my burka if I am still to be confronted by all those non-burka-clad females every time I go out in public?" Thus, they argue, their own religious freedom demands that others who do not share their beliefs must also submit to them -- that all women be forced to wear a burka**** so that they are free to maintain their own fragile sensibilities undisturbed by any reminders that there are alternatives.

Once you decide that your own freedom can only be secured by compelling everybody else to live according to your choices, then you cease to be a Very Nice Person.

[AlohaDawg]

Those of us whose barrier to faith include the presence of suffering in the world are, in my humble opinion, forgetting that we live in a world where evil (and therefore sin) were allowed to enter through the device of temptation. This world is, unfortunately, a fallen one where the presence of our living creator is unfortunately mitigated by the presence of evil. And no, I am not saying that kids suffer because of things other people did - it's not punishment. It's the state of the world we live in.

You can choose to acknowledge only the suffering in the world or you can choose to seek God (and therefore good) by seeing that there is also joy - there is redemption - there are cures - and there are miracles. If there was no suffering in the world there could be no joy either, I think - we would simply exist in a neutral state of being. We can choose to work in either direction - moving towards decreasing or increasing the amount of joy here on earth. Everything we say or do moves the balance one way or the other, regardless of if you believe in a religion or how strongly you believe.

Isn't it better to be positive than negative? Doesn't it feel better to people generally happy than generally mean or sad? (You may do this already, but) Go to that hospital and do what you can to make those kids happier, or healthier or both. Or find a cause that suits you. I hypothesize that some agnostics or atheists might find some grain of faith in doing these kinds of works...and if they don't, the works still stand on their own merits.

[Carlos del Vaca]

Those of us whose barrier to faith include the presence of suffering in the world are, in my humble opinion, forgetting that we live in a world where evil (and therefore sin) were allowed to enter through the device of temptation. This world is, unfortunately, a fallen one where the presence of our living creator is unfortunately mitigated by the presence of evil. And no, I am not saying that kids suffer because of things other people did - it's not punishment. It's the state of the world we live in.

Aren't you presupposing that the tale of the Garden of Eden is true, then?

I actually agree with a lot of what you say here, AD.  Part of the appeal of Buddhism to me is that it doesn't attempt to gloss over the evil in the world; it's part of existence.  Embrace the good and the beautiful that you find; try to reduce your attachment to material pleasures and you'll alleviate your suffering.

So that's all well and good.  What I find untenable is the notion that there is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being who will intervene in human affairs if we ask Him nicely.  There's just too much crap in the world for that to be true.

[AlohaDawg]

So much of the crap in the world is caused by the people, though - and only the people are going to solve that problem. Buddhist people, Muslim people, Jewish people, Christian people, Agnostic people and Atheist people can all increase the general amount of good.

I love Buddhists for a funny reason: good Buddhists are what good Christians should be (and possibly vice versa) in terms of their interaction with a world filled with both good and evil.


I think that the creation story and the story of the Fall is largely allegorical but I do teach it to my kids because they learn very well from allegory (and much of the Bible is meant to teach people broad concepts through story) and will later develop intellectually and make decisions about "how" to believe once they have an understanding about "what" to believe (if that makes sense).

[jough]

So cancer is caused by free will?  Tsunami and earthquakes?

It seems the big G is pretty laissez-faire.

What's the difference between faith and superstition?