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[Nabubrush]

what I really really want... is a statistic about how often crime is stopped by guns. Owned by citizens.
I have never heard it. Maybe it will change my mind. Maybe the liberal media doesn't want me to know how good guns are for me, and america.
but I have never heard this statistic. And it seems like... if "people saved by owning guns" were greater than "people foolishly destroyed by guns"... I would have heard by now. Anti-gun types constantly spew facts and figures... but I've never heard an NRA member use a single one, past the 2nd amendment and crap about the number of NRA members.

The numbers do not generally support guns being used to defend the gun-owner versus guns being accidentally discharged or used against the gun-owner. Also, stolen guns skew the numbers even farther.

[littlefallsmets]

To be fair, though... while I have been saying some extreme things, I have always couched them as emotionally-driven and while some people have strongly disagreed with me, they've been really fair about accepting them as emotional.

I think we were pretty well-behaved even when teacher was out sneaking a quick smoke.

(smile-face emoticon)

[Sub_Topical]

...And where messageboard debates on controversial topics do not get out of hand overnight when I am sleeping and can't lock the thread. OK?

No sweaty, wombat. I'm kinda determined not to pull a blow up here because I really am interested in opinions and questions.

Inev...it's a case of under and miss-reporting the actual impacts of firearms and the national and state trends. I'll be back to have a nice talk with ya guyzos and try to present some information without it seeming like homework.

[Doc]

I'm not huge on guns myself, but I'm not as completely opposed to them as LFM is. Possibly this has to do with living in a country that doesn't have as much a record of gun violence as the US (and I do think gun violence over there is linked to a much bigger social problem rather than simple availability and both need to be addressed if the situation is going to improve) but I here's my point of view:
Let's stop making handguns.
I'm not saying make them illegal for people to own the ones that are currently around since that seems a touchy issue but let's just stop making this type of gun that can only possibly be used to murder another human being. Most countries in the world seem to be in agreement that murder is a bit of a no no and as far as I'm aware handguns have no use in hunting etc. so how about we just stop making these things which only exist to commit what most people believe to be the most heinous act that can be commited by man.
Sure the remaining guns will still be available to criminals but they will also still be available to normal civilians for protection, and since they will be worth much more it will be less likely some piece of shit who wants to rob your house will be able to get one.
Of course this will never happen becuase even if we could convince people that civilians don't need guns the military still need them don't we, and lord knows what would happen if we started as a species to scale back our constant military agression.
Check out my bleeding heart!

Also LFM I didn't want to say it before because you were talking some heavy stuff and I didn't want to sound frivolous but "I am pretty much Batman on the topic of guns" is the best description ever.

[littlefallsmets]

Also LFM I didn't want to say it before because you were talking some heavy stuff and I didn't want to sound frivolous but "I am pretty much Batman on the topic of guns" is the best description ever.

Heh. It's okay.

Suffice it to say that I have had this conversation enough times in my life where I have been able to basically distill my point of view down to its purest and most disgestable form and "I am pretty much Batman on the topic of guns" is the product of fifteen years of that work.

I appreciate the compliment.

[KeithHernandez]

I am anti gun and a vegetarian, but I still believe in hunting.  Or, like, I don't see hunting as a negative thing.  At least pure hunting.  Not those assholes that go to places that releases birds that have never flown before and all that, just some what fair hunting.  So I am not completely anti gun, just alot more regulation.  However, gun people (not necessarily those on this boards, but the far out Heston types) are kind of jerks from a certain perspective.  What the fuck has ever been taken from the gun owners?  Anti tank missiles?  Yeah, I am sure the founders would have loved those around.  It is just people some people act as if they are being persecuted, and will put down gay marriage and other such things.  It is hell of hypocritical, and from an African American or Native American or Gay or any minority group whose constitutional rights have been ignored it must seek like bullshit.  The same people who look the other way on the other nine rights believe in the second?

[theinevitable]

man. This guy in my government class...
we should have had a party, where I burned flags and he shot doves with assault rifles.

...that would have had about the same net effect as the debates we used to have. Except... maybe... more dead doves.

[Sub_Topical]

what I really really want... is a statistic about how often crime is stopped by guns. Owned by
citizens.I have never heard it. Maybe it will change my mind. Maybe the liberal media doesn't want me
to know how good guns are for me, and america. but I have never heard this statistic. And it seems like... if "people saved by owning guns"
were greater than "people foolishly destroyed by guns"... I would have heard by now. Anti-gun
types constantly spew facts and figures... but I've never heard an NRA member use a single one,
past the 2nd amendment and crap about the number of NRA members.

Maybe this link will help you start questioning why this message doesn't have a wider voice.

NRA addresses 'fables'

Fable one for you, pardner. If you want to know how often a gun was used in a 'justifiable homocide' try here. This does not address instances of prevention, you can do your own diggin for that. I really wish the choice of the 'fable' theme hadn't been chosen but if you can handle a little tounge in cheek it's OK. I do think the range of issues addressed is pretty pertinent. Also, the data used from the BoJ, NIJ, GAO, SAAMI, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, NSC and NCHS in the footnotes is easily found and reviewed for ones ownself. I've got the NCHS accidental death .xls report for California open right now and it's...interesting. (short version: fewer gun accidents/suicide/homicide incidents every year from 1981 on in CA.)

educating the society as a whole... both about how to be safe and sane around the things but also to neuter the American cult of gun violence in the popular media and that...

If properly handled and viewed AS a necessary evil as opposed to this awesome god-power extension of a cock that Quentin Tarantino thinks is hilarious that American culture seems to see it as...

"American culture seems to see it as..."

Yep. Agreed. Hella large.

And Doc up there made a pertinent statement up there too, about the sociological underpinnings driving violent crime and weapon use.

I haven't heard the standard news outlets trumpeting the lowest crime/violent crime rate in decades or noting that it has been a consistent decline. Course that doesn't sell in our go go go sensasionalist pap environment. Course, I haven't seen anything about responsible handgun/rifle owners getting together (often times with NRA support/funding) and sponsoring events that stress responsible gun use, safety and ethics (and FUN within those guidelines). The event I participated in drew over 40k last June. This January I took up one Saturday a month to help run the .22 juniors range at my club. The idea being to introduce youth to riflemanship with an emphasis on safety and responsible handling. The range is open to the public for free on the third Sat. of each month and we'll provide youth .22LR training rifles on a limited basis.

To wrap this back up to culture, what I see is that through education and training in a structured environment the crap media message gets cut out for the reality of what a rifle is, how it should be handled, what responsibility it involves and what ethics of use apply. Most importantly, the firearm is de-mystified and the potential for destruction is understood, reinforcing the message of safety and responsibility.

So yeah. We're screwed.

I just realized there's no way I should continue this conversation. Y'all are talking opinions and personal experiences and I'm leaning towards bombarding you with data.

That dog won't hunt.

PAX MY MIGGROIDS

[jaydub]

Interesting tables.  In summary, over the last 5 years in the U.S.,  for every 5 felons killed in the commision of a felony, 2 of them were killed by private citizens - most of the time with a hand gun. (A total of 2,916 toe tags for combined stats).

Edit for total.

[Doc]

Sub: Ain't nothing wrong with data man, I love me some data. And I can believe that violent crime is on the decrease despite what the media would have us believe. And if there was sufficient education then gun control would be unneccessary. But while we are stuck with fuck*ng douchebags I think we have to accept some sort of limitations on these lethal weapons. Is it possible for someone convicted of violent crime to get a gun over there? Because that seems like an example of something the law should restrict if not.

Jaydub: That's a lot higher than I expected, I'd like to know how many of those crimes were violent crimes.

[Sub_Topical]

Is it possible for someone convicted of violent crime to get a gun over there?

R: Illegally, as in from a dude who has burgled one. Background checks in effect with waiting period across much/most of the country.There's also various limitations, by state, on the number of certain types of guns that can be bought during any given time period. In CA you can buy one handgun every 30 calendar days.

I'd like to know how many of those crimes were violent crimes.

R: Justifiable homocide indicates that there was a cause for the action. In many/most jurisdictions that phrasing indicates defense against hostile/harmful action from another that meets the applicable local test of what constitutes justifiable. A standard example would be an actual entry onto private property while armed. In many areas the test for this is higher and involves the decedent having to make or pose a physical threat before test is met.

And if there was sufficient education then gun control would be unneccessary.

R: I think current forms of registration and control should be maintained. Partially as a way to identify the miscreants and hammer their asses flat.

[pmcd9]

Basically, I think if you guys get guns, then I should get drugs.

Can't we have both?

[melack]

I think you should be able to own a gun for hunting, but keeping a nine in your bedstand for protection isn't really something I can get behind.

Myself, I feel absolutely no need to own or fire a gun. This is probably due to my playing so many violent video games where I do nothing but that. If I can take my frustration out on virtual Nazis, why should I want to go empty a clip at the local firing range? All that probably seems like a paradox if you listen to all the anti-video game activists that these things make you more violent, but for me it's just the opposite. Does any one else kind of feel the same way or am I just strange?

[linnea]

I think I may have posted how after the stalking incident that I slept with a loaded .357 under my bed. I don't do that anymore, and I definitely won't do it if I move back home to Colorado. Here, there are no chilluns that visit my house... but I could imagine having friends over for dinner and the kids wandering off upstairs when nobody was looking, and then finding the gun, which would be Hella Bad. I would never be able to forgive myself, so I'll just have to keep it in a locked safe 100% of the time. It's kind of dangerous for me to be getting so cavalier about having loaded firearms in my house.

Maybe I'll get a gunsafe/nightstand. Does someone have a patent on that yet?

[jaydub]

Have a look at this
safe.  I currently only own longarms, but I'll work some extra cash free someday for a pistol.  When I do, you can bet I'll drop $150 extra for a safe like this one.