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[littlefallsmets]

The fight against the ingrained cultural assumptions that lie inside our hearts and minds that prevent us from following our bliss and being humane is pretty much THE Good Fight, there is no doubt about it, Nabu. I am with that fight as you seem to be, as well.

But I'm not going to pretend that most people who try to make the big leaps against those assumptions don't... end up hitting snags and come crawling back to the pain that they knew before.

"Finding Jesus" "being born again" "going back to moral values" "reconsidering traditions".

All that bullshit that basically translates to "I'd rather be normal than happy"...

Most of the people I've known have staggered and fallen in the face of that... especially in the cases where more than one person was on that journey. A couple or a family or something.

The more people involved in that journey, the higher the odds that someone's gonna give up.

[AugustWest]

And what is marriage if it is not a religious covenant and/or a legal agreement? A legal agreement that is often broken in court on the grounds of... sexual infidelity.

A deep emotional agreement between two people. 

I've been married for almost 19 years now.  Neither of us are religious (spiritual maybe, but not relgious).  The legal aspects of our marriage relate to how our property and obligations would be divided should be decide to part. 

But neither religious nor legal reasons has a thing to do with why we married, why we've stayed together and why I expect we'll be together until we die.

On some level, Mrs. West and I are good for each other.  We support each other emotionally, physically and spiritually.  When we recognized that we made a committment to each other to continue to support each other as long as possible.

Money and Hell are secondary considerations at best.

[Nabubrush]

The fight against the ingrained cultural assumptions that lie inside our hearts and minds that prevent us from following our bliss and being humane is pretty much THE Good Fight, there is no doubt about it, Nabu. I am with that fight as you seem to be, as well.

But I'm not going to pretend that most people who try to make the big leaps against those assumptions don't... end up hitting snags and come crawling back to the pain that they knew before.

"Finding Jesus" "being born again" "going back to moral values" "reconsidering traditions".

All that bullshit that basically translates to "I'd rather be normal than happy"...

Most of the people I've known have staggered and fallen in the face of that... especially in the cases where more than one person was on that journey. A couple or a family or something.

The more people involved in that journey, the higher the odds that someone's gonna give up.

Well, I was lucky in terms of who agreed to share the journey with me.

[littlefallsmets]

Well, I am genuinely very glad that both August and Nabu found partners like that and created their own definitions of marriage with their wifes that work for them. That's what matters. penisltov.

Many many people haven't. Many people would say that if not for religion or contract, such people have "wonderful relationships" or "wonderful partnerships" but not "marriages".

Those people would be assholes who I in no way agree with.

Sadly, those people are generally In Charge Of Things.

[Nabubrush]

Well, I am genuinely very glad that both August and Nabu found partners like that and created their own definitions of marriage with their wifes that work for them. That's what matters. penisltov.

Many many people haven't. Many people would say that if not for religion or contract, such people have "wonderful relationships" or "wonderful partnerships" but not "marriages".

Those people would be assholes who I in no way agree with.

Sadly, those people are generally In Charge Of Things.

You spend enough time in the box, you'll hit one over the fence.

[AugustWest]

Many many people haven't. Many people would say that if not for religion or contract, such people have "wonderful relationships" or "wonderful partnerships" but not "marriages".

Those people would be assholes who I in no way agree with.

Who the fuck cares what those assholes say?  A true marriage is between two people and two people only.  I truly hope that you find someone to marry on these terms LFM -- I believe you deserve it, because I believe you are a good guy.

Also, I'm going to bed now because Mrs. West just got home from work.  And, I'm tired of being drunkenly garrulous on the interent.

[Nabubrush]

Who the fuck cares what those assholes say?  A true marriage is between two people and two people only.  I truly hope that you find someone to marry on these terms LFM -- I believe you deserve it, because I believe you are a good guy.

Also, I'm going to bed now because Mrs. West just got home from work.  And, I'm tired of being drunkenly garrulous on the interent.

I would like to point out here that as far as I am concerned, a true marriage need not be limited to two people. However, all members should be human for best results.

[littlefallsmets]

It don't matter to me what those assholes think.

And... I'm in a long-term relationship with the only person I've ever even CONSIDERED marrying.

I'm a pretty happy dude.

I'm just sayin'... most of the people I've known who've tried something other than a sexually-exclusive two-person relationship for a long period of time have collapsed under jealousy or some other re-emergence of caring about what those assholes think.

If both people are completely into some other idea of the form and it works for them, as Nabu seems to be suggesting he and his wife are into in some way, I am completely happy for them.

If we had more people with the strength to be happy on their own terms, shit would work better.

[ack-47]

Who the fuck cares what those assholes say?

The IRS, for starters. Part of why Sam and I aren't getting married until it's legal for everyone is that several of our gay friends have been in long-term relationships and if one of them were on his or her (mostly her, but that is because American men have ants in their #####) deathbed the other one would not have power of attorney or be able to provide insurance or anything. It is unfortunate in all kinds of ways living in a country where assholes who are OK with Britney Spears marrying a man for five minutes but not OK with one dude marrying another run shit.

Unfortunately, when people act a dick it is everyone's problem in at least a little way. Even when they are marginal and obscure - the world is basically poorer for the Westboro Baptist assholes being the subject of mass-media attention. Thanks to their asinine business, there is at least one preacher out there who will be more comfortable castigating gays openly instead of just going after their practices, and one more red-state gay teenager who would have had a decent enough upbringing being denied it because his parents are impressionable when it comes to 900-foot Jesuses.

Never underestimate the power of one man or one lady to make a difference - whether he or she is a power for good or for Dick.

[wombat]

I would like to point out here that as far as I am concerned, a true marriage need not be limited to two people. However, all members should be human for best results.

Well, aren't you prejudiced.

[side_show]

On the flip side, my SO and I aren't married, but after two years of living in a conjugal relationship, my gov't considers us common law.  I feel sort of ambivalent and annoyed by this, especially since I think I never want to be married to anyone, but it's a choice that was taken away from me.  The law came into place at the time as we were about to hit the two year mark (it used to be seven years).  Did I want to be legally bound to my partner and give him the right to half of my stuff and become personally responsible for half of his fairly large debt (which was amassed from a previous, bad relationship)?  No.  I wanted to be free to make the choice when and if I wanted to.  The law came in to place before gay marriage was legalized here, as a way of protecting and recognizing partnerships not legally classified as marriage at the time, but for a young strait couple who were just messing around, it's sort of unfair.  We've hit some rocky roads recently, and though I think things are getting worked out, I can't deny that knowing I contributed much much more financially to our relationship - and his massive debt - scares the hell out of me.

[Nabubrush]

Unfortunately, when people act a dick it is everyone's problem in at least a little way.

Truth.

[RMJ12345]

New York Times - Pas de Deux of Sexuality is Written in Genes.

I thought of this thread after reading this article. It seems to basically say that men are hardwired one way or another, but women are without sexuality - they're just picky, and they usually choose men.

Presumably the masculinization of the brain shapes some neural circuit that makes women desirable. If so, this circuitry is wired differently in gay men. In experiments in which subjects are shown photographs of desirable men or women, straight men are aroused by women, gay men by men.

Such experiments do not show the same clear divide with women. Whether women describe themselves as straight or lesbian, “Their sexual arousal seems to be relatively indiscriminate — they get aroused by both male and female images,” Dr. Bailey said. “I’m not even sure females have a sexual orientation. But they have sexual preferences. Women are very picky, and most choose to have sex with men.”

Dr. Bailey believes that the systems for sexual orientation and arousal make men go out and find people to have sex with, whereas women are more focused on accepting or rejecting those who seek sex with them.

Similar differences between the sexes are seen by Marc Breedlove, a neuroscientist at Michigan State University. “Most males are quite stubborn in their ideas about which sex they want to pursue, while women seem more flexible,” he said.

Sexual orientation, at least for men, seems to be settled before birth. “I think most of the scientists working on these questions are convinced that the antecedents of sexual orientation in males are happening early in life, probably before birth,” Dr. Breedlove said, “whereas for females, some are probably born to become gay, but clearly some get there quite late in life.”

So basically it seems like they're saying that sexuality is only fluid for women. Which seems fitting.
Anyway, read the article, it's really fascinating.

[littlefallsmets]

So basically it seems like they're saying that sexuality is only fluid for women. Which seems fitting.

Fluid in the sense that it legitimately changes over your life or... fluid in the sense of "true" bisexuality?

Because those are two way way different things.

If you're saying that a Kinsey "number" is much more concrete for men from the start than women... I probably agree.

But some people would probably also use this information to argue that men can't be nearly-down-the-middle-bisexual, that a man claiming to be bi would actually be either a gay man who can't embrace his gay completely or a straight man getting off on the taboo and... I don't know if I dig that idea so much.

I don't think that's what you're saying, Rumjay, but... like... I think people would use this to say that.

[RMJ12345]

But some people would probably also use this information to argue that men can't be nearly-down-the-middle-bisexual, that a man claiming to be bi would actually be either a gay man who can't embrace his gay completely or a straight man getting off on the taboo and... I don't know if I dig that idea so much.

I think that's what the article's saying. Other studies I've read about have suggested similar things - that men who are truly bisexual are rare.

This is a copout, but I'm not really saying anything. Science is science, fallible as anything else. I don't think that bi men are impossible. But, even if most men are wired into a binary, surely the wires of some men will get crossed.

The thing about women seems pretty right on the money though - in keeping with what I've seen at women's college