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[theinevitable]

i feel like what we are missing about LFM's statements, no matter how ridiculous-assumption-making they may be, is that... McD is a really shitty company to work for. I have read books about this. They do not treat their employees well.
Do we agree that sometimes someone can get fucked without knowing they're getting fucked? It is very possible for people to be happy doing something that is completely horrible... in fact, that is what happens most of the time when people are happy.
Does that mean they're pathetic? No. It means they're the same as most people. Getting fucked over.
That doesn't mean it's OK.

Sure, a lot of people work jobs that suck. Most people.
But that doesn't mean it doesn't suck that, you know, the minimum wage is really low, and is not sufficiently adjusted for cost-of-living changes and inflation over the decades. It doesn't mean that it doesn't suck that when McD workers try to unionize they shut down the location and open another one down the street.


My least-favorite thing in the entire world is the "life isn't fair, get used to it" chain of argument.
Life isn't fair because of people who say that shit. 90% of the time when you hear "life isn't fair," it is from someone who is fuck*ng you over. Fuck.
there are some things about life that aren't fair, and that nothing can change. Everyone dies. Sometimes when you're old you can't pee as much as you want to.
But there are some things in life that aren't fair because people are assholes, and some of those things can be fixed.


What I am saying is, I guess...
good for him if he is proud of this. good for him for finding a job he likes and can take satisfaction in.
But it is still sad that McDonalds exists by manipulating a lot of things that are bad in the world.

[jaydub]

I really wish at some point I had figured out the whole yelling-to-get-my-point across thing.  Everytime I try it, my message gets lost in how mad I'm feeling and it ends up puzzling/upsetting the target of my wrath, rather than motivating them.  People say they like how I handle stressful situations by talking so calmly - but thats only because the only effective alternative for me would be violence.  Which is illegal.  Bluffing is tough too, because I'm teeny-tiny.  Nothing worse than yelling at someone and having them laugh because I'm so cute.

[wombat]

You can watch video of the retirement party:
http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=184631

The immediately previous owner (he sold it to his son) says "We don't fire anyone, they fire themselves. If you show up on time and are friendly and honest you can stay forever."

Jaydub, no one ever laughs at me when I'm mad because I'm little. You must not be doing it right.

[miles]

When I first read the article I thought it was sad. But, and I think Wombat touched on this, though directly to LFM, it's because I'm unsatisfied with my career and my academic choices. Here I am with a college degree and I hate my job and don't know what my next step is, and i just turned 30. So really my first thought was "there but for the grace of God..." and it was depressing. But then I thought, "how nice this guy seems to have enjoyed this job for so long and is getting recognized." The only sad thing about it to me after that was all he got was some fuck*ng cake? Come on McDonald's, at least give him a nice watch or something!

But yeah, the whole projecting thing.

[dejavroom]

I'm saying this to no one in particular, so no one in particular has to reply, really
[offtopic]
(It must be acknowledged, of course, that projecting is paramount to a writer. It's what amounts in the end to imagination, "putting oneself in someone else's shoes". However, it's always advisable to build those projections from experience rather than from fanciful (I mean ridiculous) notions that have no bearing in reality (like a hilarious tirade, in another thread, about how "like, if you're really honestly looking to get into fiction writing, you shouldn't be allowed to actually get a degree higher than a bachelor's in anything English or literature related"). Statements that bear the mark of the mind too involved with itself, thinking that what applies to it necessarily applies to everybody else. That type of self-involved recursiveness (like saying that you project because projecting is the norm in the human set) can result in nothing but banality (the epiphany-per-paragraph, the solemnity, the fixation in stoic losers (that apparently would remain losers even when super-powered) which in the end are little more than see-through stand-ins for the author. It reminds me a bit of David Foster Wallace (in tone, not in technique or muscle, of course) - and see what good it did to him.)
[/offtopic]

[jaydub]

Jaydub, no one ever laughs at me when I'm mad because I'm little. You must not be doing it right.

Yeah, that was the thesis of my post.  No one gives lessons on "intimidating yelling".  Except perhaps parents.  Mine didn't yell.  We got grounded, or smacked with the wooden spoon.  I do get results with my method, but at considerable cost to my blood pressure.  Keeping the outer cool while stress and anger pounds inside is taxing.

[miles]

I've been eating some really good burgers lately (not from McDonald's), but they do make a good french fry.

I'm a burger fanatic. If you are too you should check out this blog.

[pmcd9]

I'm a burger fanatic. If you are too you should check out this blog.

A lot of people are calling bullshit on this burger.

[theinevitable]

saying that you project because projecting is the norm in the human set

actually, it is.

the only people who are human and do not project are severely autistic people, as far as I am aware.

[dejavroom]

actually, it is.

I'm not disputing this as an isolated fact, but as an argument viable to be used to defend LFM's position. Because if it was projecting, then it wasn't valid as an argument regarding the purported sadness of the life of the McDonald's dude.

[theinevitable]

saying that people (through their choices) fuck themselves over

This is completely different from what I am talking about. I am talking about getting fucked over by the results of large corporations doing what they do; seek the profit motive. Getting fucked over by people who get their news from Glenn Beck and then vote. Getting fucked over by the fact that because of subsidies, the cheapest food is food that is unhealthy and inefficient environmentally.

As far as books telling you McDonald's is a shitty-to-employees company, [...] cease to exist

But there are companies that treat employees well. Apparently, for example, this McDonald's location has treated this man well. Target treats its employees better than WalMart.
The way we get companies to treat their employees well is this: make it illegal for them not to. Enforce the right to unionize, raise minimum wages, etc. As often cited in these kinds of books, "real" minimum wage as adjusted for inflation has gone down consistently over the last (however many) years, while executive compensation has gone up. What changed? My 10th grade history teacher, in our unit on East Asia, cited some statistic like "managers in Japan are paid 20 times what their workers are paid"
"BOO!"
"oh, but in the US, it's like 50 times."
"oh. But. They deserve to be paid that much more!"
bullshit.
any legislation to give anyone a break, ever, gets shot down with bullshit arguments about hurting businesses. fuck that noise. fuck it in the ear.

As far as peering into peoples lives and determining their relative crumminess quotient and whether or not they should be happy or not...who the heck are you? Some moral and all knowing overseer sitting in judgment of their existence and rating it against your own framework? Muy hubris.

This is not at all what I'm saying. People can be happy with whatever they're happy with. Do you think you don't judge anything, ever? I'm not allowed to judge that McDonald's treats its workers badly? Fuck you. McDonald's is a shitty corporation that has gotten obscenely wealthy by making us fat and poor.
Is this due to people's own stupidity?
probably, but that doesn't make it OK.

If the answer is 'without 'em' please justify removing that choice from my table through what would necessarily be legislative acts.

Well, I would say that someone's right to earn a living wage is superior to your right to eat shitty cheap food. I am comfortable with that argument.

[wombat]

When I first read the article I thought it was sad. But, and I think Wombat touched on this, though directly to LFM, it's because I'm unsatisfied with my career and my academic choices. Here I am with a college degree and I hate my job and don't know what my next step is, and i just turned 30. So really my first thought was "there but for the grace of God..." and it was depressing. But then I thought, "how nice this guy seems to have enjoyed this job for so long and is getting recognized." The only sad thing about it to me after that was all he got was some fuck*ng cake? Come on McDonald's, at least give him a nice watch or something!

But yeah, the whole projecting thing.

I think the reaction someone in your position should have is not "there but for the grace of God," but "how do I get some of that?" What we all want is to find a job we'll be happy in for fifty years, right?

You know, although it wasn't 100% clear if this was a retirement party, I never understand why they give watches to people who are retiring - aren't they supposed to not have to get anywhere on time anymore?

[miles]

Oh sure, I understand that. But, I have worked those kind of jobs before, and they are not for me. So first when I read that he had been there for so damn long, I thought about a few guys that have been doing my job for 20+ years and seem miserable, and the thought that I will be in this job for that long makes me want to slit my wrists. Clearly that's not the case here. But, as I said, I changed my mind pretty quickly. I would like some of that, just not at McDonald's.

But how about this for a retirement gift. A $5k watch with a blank face? (And I don't think he's retiring, I was just saying it may have been nicer to give him something more than cake, but maybe that jersey did mean a lot).

[AugustWest]

Inev, this isn't about McDonalds as a corporate citizen or economic justice or anything like that.  You no doubt have very valid points in that regard.  Everything you say may be exactly correct, but it misses the point.

It's not about the employer at all, really.  It's about this guy.  He accomplished something by working 50 years, and something more by working in the same place for that long.  Was he treated fairly by McDonalds or by our economic system?  Who knows.  Was he exploited?   Who isn't?  It's not about what was done to him, it's about what he did.  He made a life for himself out of what he found at McDonalds.

It's presumptuous and condescending to assume that life he made was somehow sad or worth less because of who his employer was or what job he did.

Of course, this guy could have been a lousy employee for 50 years, and real shitheel to boot.  It which case it's no better than he deserved.

[theinevitable]

It's presumptuous and condescending to assume that life he made was somehow sad or worth less because of who his employer was or what job he did.

That is the thing, I am not saying that his life is sad or worth any less than he thinks it is. I am saying that the fact that he is happy with his life doesn't change the fact that most McDonald's employees are treated poorly. Maybe at this particular McDonald's he was treated well, and if so, great for him, and great for this McDonald's. If he was treated poorly/exploited and was still happy with that, then yes, maybe I would say that is a sad thing. It is very possible for some people to be happy and fulfilled doing something that, for most people, sucks, and that sucky situation is still sad even if some guy has found happiness in it. The same way people can be unhappy with what are considered by most to be "good" situations.
I am having trouble coming up with good examples that aren't stupidly extreme.

I guess something like...
my grandfather worked a series of crappy manual-labor jobs throughout his life, and was bitter that he hadn't been able to afford to go to college (some sort of falling-out with his parents which I am not clear on, they paid for his brother to go and not him). Does this mean he had a sad life? Not necessarily... he had 2 kids and a wife and a house and for all I know he was happy (he died before I was born). It's sad, to me, that he didn't have that opportunity. Does that mean he had a "sad life?" No.

I guess I was initially mostly responding to A-CAP's post. The fact that people end up at a job they hate, that is disrespected by the majority of people, because it is their only option, to me is a sad situation. The fact that most people hate their jobs or whatever does not make it less shitty.
I am unhappy with "this is the way it has always been" because there are a lot of things that always-were until they stopped.
I mean, look at say, Coal Miners back before OSHA and stuff. Living in the company town, getting black lung, child labor, etc. Maybe some people were happy with this, but it was still a really shitty situation that should be changed. I guess I get worried about "look at this person satisfied with their low-prestige job" stories because sometimes they seem like they're saying people should be satisfied with what they have and never fight for more.
Don't rock the boat if you want to keep food on the table.

Also, August, you are my favorite. I don't care who knows it, you always speak truth.