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Author Topic: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised  (Read 15304 times)

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wombat

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2009, 04:51:49 pm »
Quote from: Ben-San on March 06, 2009, 03:37:47 pm
God doesn't like people to wander in the desert with uncut man-business."

Mysterious ways, indeed.
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miles

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2009, 06:28:02 pm »
Maybe only tangentially related to the original topic (circumcision is mentioned in an embedded video) but David Plotz over at Slate read the entire Bible (OT only it seems) and wrote a book about it. The article is a brief overview of what he learned and why he thinks everyone, and non-believers especially, should read it. Basically, the Bible has informed just about every corner of our culture, and non-believers will be even angrier at God after reading it. Apparently he blogged about the experience as well, which I missed. I've never read the Old Testament cover to cover, but have certainly read and studied most, if not all of it, and while it's true that much of it is interesting, by Jesus it's long and boring. God, like Bill Clinton, needed a better editor. What a windbag.
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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2009, 06:39:05 pm »
I read his blog as he went along. It was really interesting because like him there were various phrases and whatnot that I didn't realize were biblical. Plus being catholic I was basically encouraged to only read certain parts anyway.

I remember when he first finished he had ruled out reading the NT being with him being jewish it wasn't really his top priority.
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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2009, 07:06:44 pm »
Quote
I began the Bible as a hopeful, but indifferent, agnostic. I wished for a God, but I didn't really care. I leave the Bible as a hopeless and angry agnostic. I'm brokenhearted about God.

That pretty much exactly describes my experience reading the Bible.
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jaydub

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2009, 09:16:13 pm »
Not trying to proselytize too much here, but if all you read is the Old Testament, that is surely the view of God you will arrive at.  It is Christ's teachings about God that evoke the image of the loving creator.  The OT was written for the Jews, by the Jews, and describes their place in the world and their status as the chosen people of a terrible and wrathful all-powerful Deity.  The NT was written as a vehicle for bringing the life and teaching of Christ to the world, revealing to the world that the One God seeks to be known to all of his creation, and that we should all want to be known to him and to one another. 

/putting down the bullhorn, now...
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lprkn

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2009, 09:36:26 pm »
Quote from: jaydub on March 06, 2009, 09:16:13 pm
Not trying to proselytize too much here, but if all you read is the Old Testament, that is surely the view of God you will arrive at.  It is Christ's teachings about God that evoke the image of the loving creator.  The OT was written for the Jews, by the Jews, and describes their place in the world and their status as the chosen people of a terrible and wrathful all-powerful Deity...

The guy does mention that in the article as well. Apparently, the traditional interpretation is that it only seems cruel and vengeful to us because we as humans can't understand the mind of God. But the author of the book rejects that, even as a Jew.
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miles

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2009, 09:37:08 pm »
Quote from: jaydub on March 06, 2009, 09:16:13 pm
Not trying to proselytize too much here

I'm not either, but Plotz did respond to this specifically:

Quote
When I complain to religious friends about how much He dismays me, I usually get one of two responses. Christians say: Well, yes, but this is all setup for the New Testament. Reading only the Old Testament is like leaving halfway through the movie. I'm missing all the redemption. If I want to find the grace and forgiveness and wonder, I have to read and believe in the story of Jesus Christ, which explains and redeems all. But that doesn't work for me. I'm a Jew. I don't, and can't, believe that Christ died for my sins. And even if he did, I still don't think that would wash away God's crimes in the Old Testament.
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miles

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2009, 10:21:17 pm »
I think you're right, but I suppose that today when people are encouraged to have a personal relationship with God, they can't helped but be shocked when you read about things that seem to be condoned and even encouraged by God in the OT, chief among them rape and genocide.
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Doc

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2009, 04:55:41 am »
Yeah the idea of rejecting a version of God because he is a wrathful vengemeister would be pretty ridiculous to old time people. The wrath is why you did all the worshipping, so he didn't turn it on you. You couldn't have a personal relationship with that God anymore than you can have a personal relationship with a cyclone.
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Ben-San

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2009, 09:30:01 am »
Quote from: Doc on March 07, 2009, 04:55:41 am
Yeah the idea of rejecting a version of God because he is a wrathful vengemeister would be pretty ridiculous to old time people. The wrath is why you did all the worshipping, so he didn't turn it on you. You couldn't have a personal relationship with that God anymore than you can have a personal relationship with a cyclone.

I'll just note that the deal offered to the people of Israel isn't "worship me or I'll step on you" - if you don't worship God but don't actively piss Him off, He just ignores you. The benefit of actively worshipping God in this context is not so much keeping the vengemeister off your back as actually having Him in your corner, and when you get kicked out of your homeland the third or fourth time in a row the idea of having a wrathful vengemeister backing you is a pretty darn tempting one. That said, God doesn't get off on the vengeance; most famously He commanded the angels to silence after He smote the Egyptians, saying in effect "yeah, I had to do it, it's miraculous, but I'm not happy about it, remember I made those guys too."

It's very true that you don't have a personal relationship with the oldschool God in the modern sense. You have a contract. Hold up your end of the contract, God holds up His. Personal emotional comfort in old-school Jewish stories tends to come from merciful angels or the prophet Elijah.
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Doc

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2009, 11:06:59 am »
Education. There was a fair bit of assumption in my post.
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2009, 06:05:23 pm »
Counterargument:

YoHoWoH allowing everyone Job held precious to be brutally wiped out, even though Job was about as loyal as possible, to win a gentleman's bet with the Devil.

Oh, he gave him a NEW family at the end but... everybody horribly killed stayed cold in the earth.

So that, effectively, Satan could owe YoHoYoHoapirate'slifeforme a Coke.
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Ben-San

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2009, 01:06:27 am »
Is this a counterargument to anything in particular or just a chance to make fun of Hebrew for writing without vowels?
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littlefallsmets

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2009, 04:37:54 am »
Both?

(There is much evidence that God was a pirate. YHWH becoming basically YoHowHo is only the most obvious.)
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jaydub

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Re: Raise your hand if you are uncircumcised
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2009, 05:19:05 am »
Quote from: littlefallsmets on March 07, 2009, 06:05:23 pm
Counterargument:

YoHoWoH allowing everyone Job held precious to be brutally wiped out, even though Job was about as loyal as possible, to win a gentleman's bet with the Devil.

Oh, he gave him a NEW family at the end but... everybody horribly killed stayed cold in the earth.

So that, effectively, Satan could owe YoHoYoHoapirate'slifeforme a Coke.


Now you're just being rude.
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