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@achewood I had to look up how pi is derived. It has been sixteen years since the SAT, yet still, I feel very ashamed

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Author Topic: Oh no you dint!  (Read 239662 times)

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theinevitable

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #690 on: February 23, 2014, 06:14:46 pm »

Yeah, there is an open house for admitted students next month that I think I will try to attend. I will let you know.
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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #691 on: February 23, 2014, 06:42:01 pm »

Deja, are you tempted to make it more interesting, or do translators take some kind of an oath to accurately represent the prim solemn tweeness of the original work?
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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #692 on: February 24, 2014, 03:06:35 am »

Yeah, there is an open house for admitted students next month that I think I will try to attend. I will let you know.

Sure thing -- I can put you up in Hero's room, it's the most comfortable bed in the house. Just ask Paul.
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dejavroom

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #693 on: February 24, 2014, 03:17:02 am »

Deja, are you tempted to make it more interesting, or do translators take some kind of an oath to accurately represent the prim solemn tweeness of the original work?

This is as interesting a question as it is maddening. Let's see: the plasticity of the English language -- the particularities of its syntax, the richness of its lexicon (with its overabundance of words for very specific shades of meaning) -- stands in strong contrast to Romance languages like Portuguese -- which have somewhat narrower syntactic possibilities and a more modest lexicon.

Compared to English, Romance languages are a lot less malleable (as someone who writes in both I can attest that Portuguese feels "harder" to make look/sound good, while often I feel that English offers more possibilities for the articulation of ideas), and I feel that Romance languages don't encourage experimentation and risk-taking -- or at least don't reward it well. Meaning that I feel like English gives more leeway to pyrotechnics that still feel organic, natural, meaningful (I don't think we have a lot of authors that have successfully made "their" version of Portuguese, the way a lot of anglophone writers have made "their" version of English that we can recognize right from the first beats -- just from the top of my head Faulkner, Cormac McCarthy, Don DeLillo).

So (regardless of questions of taste or competence), just the fact that Mrs. Munro's text leans more to the overwrought side of things means that translating it to Portuguese will involve a great deal of streamlining anyway -- a lot less than if her text leaned more towards the "tame" (for example, more along the lines of Hemingway). By the time I have managed to convey the brunt of the meaning (with all the attendant shadings that I was able to preserve -- and I try to preserve as much as possible, always), the sentence structure will have changed so much, the lexical ornamentation will have been so considerably pruned (due to the already mentioned more modest lexicon at our disposal)  that whatever personal touch which I might have considered... twee, will have fallen by the wayside already.

There are of course certain passages where the preciousness of her style comes expressed within fairly traditional syntactic structures, and these are the unavoidable sore spots where I have to make a decision: do I keep them, do I change them or do I get rid of them?

For instance, Mrs. Munro loves her some parataxis -- short clipped sentences connected by coordinating conjunctions (like "and", for instance). While I have seen it being employed to great advantage in English (probably coming down from the King James translation of the Bible, which was big on parataxis), in Portuguese this draws a lot of attention and so it is used sparingly, if ever.

So to finally answer your question: most of the time I try to -- not discard, but "dampen" the original effect a bit, hoping that it won't be so jarring in a language that feels a lot more "naked" such as Portuguese: adapting and making approximations to the original, using the resources from the target language and discarding things from the source language which, if they were translated closely, would probably draw the wrong kind of attention in the context of a more "conservative" language (but still, there's only so much one can to soften things; it might as well be that in the end I just end up with a half-assed Portuguese version of "primness". It could be, I don't know, my mind hurts just thinking about how hairsplittingly maddening this subject can get).

And then there are the few cases where just there wasn't much that I could do -- where a literal translation was available and anything else I'd try would veer off into "creation", and not "translation", and so it was off-limits. In these few painful cases, the Portuguese version of Mrs. Munro voice came off as close to the original as possible. What can one do? Some quick eye-rolling, some light cringing and we just keep on plowing.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 03:26:35 am by dejavroom »
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ianmalcolm2

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #694 on: February 24, 2014, 03:37:22 am »

Cans for ya, Elton John. You are a cool guy with an enviable job. And as somebody who really enjoy certain aspects of Alice Munro but cringes at others, I'd recommend her short stories. I think they provide a purer distillation of her 'vibe' without always being self-consciously bland. I feel like the reasons you dislike Munro are the ones that prevent me from enjoying Joan Didion. Intentional blandness as a stylistic choice always feels kind of like a cop-out.
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jaydub

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #695 on: February 24, 2014, 07:00:00 am »

I think English gets a lot of its depth by shameless plundering of words from other languages and repurposing them for changing the shade of a meaning.  Pretty and beautiful could both be construed as the same thing.  One's Old English in derivation, one is a somewhat less old French.  We now shade pretty to mean something of surface attractiveness, maybe childish and less consequential, while beauty is attractiveness with maturity and depth.
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wombat

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #696 on: February 24, 2014, 12:56:38 pm »

Deja, I hope they are paying you a lot of money.

It's a bit unfair to accuse English of plundering since the reason we have all that Romance-derived vocabulary is that it came into the language after the Norman Conquest so it was more that it was imposed on it. But yeah, we have all the old Germanic-derived words and then the Romance words with similar meanings have ended up with different shades of meanings. Few other languages have this kind of history except a similar thing is true of Japanese. I've always felt that it's kind of awful that English has ended up as this global language that everyone else has to learn, because this is only one of the things about it that are atypical and frankly just annoying and make it so much harder to learn.
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theinevitable

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #697 on: February 24, 2014, 04:16:35 pm »

There are a lot of clunky phrases in this Haruki Murakami and it makes me wonder whether it is his style, the translator, or something about Japanese. It is pretty rare that a sentence is so weird that I notice, I am generally not very observant about prose.

This also makes me notice: you can eat ramen and read Murakami and wear Japanese blue jeans and no one suggests you are a "weaboo." But watch some anime and suddenly the other things become intolerably awful to the observer. Apparently.
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Social pressures exist
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jaydub

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #698 on: February 24, 2014, 05:22:06 pm »

The Japanese make blue jeans?  Are they sold at Daiso?
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wombat

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #699 on: February 24, 2014, 05:32:27 pm »

Just the syntax of Japanese, never mind the nuances of vocabulary or anything, is so different I don't know how you could translate and convey anything about the writing style from one language to the other. The translations I've read, the solution the translator seems to take is to write with no style at all, so it's very dull. It's been a long time since I read Murakami though.
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What is this, the fuckin' Algonquin Round Table or some shit?  - Nabu

If you're going to change your life then you have to change it every day, not just the days the world isn't taking a shit on you. -Doc

theinevitable

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #700 on: February 24, 2014, 06:10:17 pm »

The Japanese make the best blue jeans in the world (according to people who care a lot about jeans). They bought all our old looms when we "upgraded" to faster ones that make shittier denim. Americana wear is a big thing over there, apparently.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 06:16:39 pm by theinevitable »
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Social pressures exist
And if you think about them all of the time
You're gonna find that your head's been kicked in
You're gonna do it all for the grind

jaydub

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #701 on: February 24, 2014, 08:17:34 pm »

The Japanese make the best blue jeans in the world (according to people who care a lot about jeans). They bought all our old looms when we "upgraded" to faster ones that make shittier denim. Americana wear is a big thing over there, apparently.
This does not surprise me in the slightest.  There is a thing with the Japanese where they philosophically believe there is a "perfect" way of doing something.  It is unattainable to do so, of course, but one's worth can be demonstrated by how close to perfection the task can be done.  It's the underpinning of the famous Tea Ceremony, chanoyu.  They were probably terribly disappointed in "our" decision to forgo quality in favour of profit for this most essential of American consumer products.
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pmcd9

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #702 on: February 24, 2014, 08:51:13 pm »

The Japanese make the best blue jeans in the world (according to people who care a lot about jeans). They bought all our old looms when we "upgraded" to faster ones that make shittier denim. Americana wear is a big thing over there, apparently.

They sit around in their Japanese jeans listening to vinyl records.
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theinevitable

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #703 on: February 24, 2014, 11:14:52 pm »

Ironically, the jeans came in the meal today. These are some fuck*ng badass jeans. And they are made with denim from the last American factory that makes denim the old-school way-- in North Carolina! Sweet.
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Social pressures exist
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You're gonna do it all for the grind

pmcd9

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Re: Oh no you dint!
« Reply #704 on: February 24, 2014, 11:34:05 pm »

Artisanal blue jeans. I do believe I've heard it all now.
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