The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Trivial Pursuits => Wild Card => Topic started by: doomglobe on July 13, 2007, 05:00:14 pm
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The saddest thing, phillipe, is depression.
No matter how good a guy has it, he can never be happy.
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Look! It's Doomglobe!
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It's been a long time buddy. Welcome back
The Saddest thing is looking up all your old friends on Facebook, only to discover they've moved on with their lives while you are in the same old rut. "Add as friend?" No thank you.
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smells...
smells...
be my friend.
PS You are not in a rut, as far as I can tell. Unless the rut is like "I go to Indonesia to represent my country all the time."
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The Saddest Thing is googling the girl you had a crush on in high school but could never bring yourself to ask out and discovering she's dead.
From complications during a sex change operation.
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The Saddest Thing is googling the girl you had a crush on in high school but could never bring yourself to ask out and discovering she's dead.
From complications during a sex change operation.
O_O
But I thought that FTM operations weren't that bad! They just get a double mastectomy.
Or was she genetically a dude and just passed for female in high school? The MTF operations are a lot more complicated.
That's crazy, lfm. Man.
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But I thought that FTM operations weren't that bad! They just get a double mastectomy.
There's always a risk with major surgery - some folks just plain don't wake up from anaesthesia. Some get M/VRSA. Plus, there are actually some rather sophisticated operations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalloplasty) going on these days to allow transgendered men a more "mainstream" experience. A former coworker of mine "went all the way", and is now married & living as a man with apparently functioning wedding tackle.
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A former coworker of mine "went all the way"
I'm imagining this as like...
*football announcer* He could... GO... ALL... THE... WAY!
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There's always a risk with major surgery - some folks just plain don't wake up from anaesthesia. Some get M/VRSA. Plus, there are actually some rather sophisticated operations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalloplasty) going on these days to allow transgendered men a more "mainstream" experience. A former coworker of mine "went all the way", and is now married & living as a man with apparently functioning wedding tackle.
Wow. Education. I had thought that trans dudes didn't have much option when it came to phalloplasty. Even for the MTFs, there's a risk of losing sensitivity or even the capability for orgasm, and it looks like the risks with phalloplasty are pretty bad. It looks like the technology hasn't changed too much for trans dudes. I hope that the future yields better functioning junk for everyone.
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smells...
smells...
be my friend.
PS You are not in a rut, as far as I can tell. Unless the rut is like "I go to Indonesia to represent my country all the time."
Dude, I wasn't talking about me. I certainly found some old friends living their same old lives 10 yrs later though! Never even changing neighbourhoods... is sort of sad when you're almost 30.
But seriously, if any of you folk want to be in my Facebook, pm me your real name and I'll send you mine. I'm the only person with my name in the world so you'll find me right quick.
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Hope you're planning to stick around and start more threads, doomie, because that one got interesting fast.
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ok, good, I'm glad that you weren't talking about you. I thought you were maybe in a down-on-yourself mood? Sometimes people get like that, you know.
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Sensation is retained through the clitoris which is at the base of the neo-phallus; also, often a large nerve in the graft is connected to nerves either from the clitoris or other nearby nerves. Also, nerves from the graft and the tissue it has been attached to usually connect after a while, thereby allowing additional sensation.
:o What we need more of is Science
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Dude, I wasn't talking about me. I certainly found some old friends living their same old lives 10 yrs later though! Never even changing neighbourhoods... is sort of sad when you're almost 30.
But seriously, if any of you folk want to be in my Facebook, pm me your real name and I'll send you mine. I'm the only person with my name in the world so you'll find me right quick.
Man, the Facebook interface just beats the ##### off the shitty MySpace ad-wading that you have to do in order to post anything on that site. Not that it's hard to beat MySpace, but it's nice to see a less shitty interface.
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Gender is the last taboo on Earth because the vast vast majority of human beings are neatly definable as male or female, x or o, zero or one.
Even a gay fella's a fella and even a gay lady's a lady, at least biologically.
Even if their chromosomes are a little off and they're really some of one and some of the other... even if they're dressed to the hilt in what their society says is the garb of the opposite gender...
You strip 'em down and in nearly every case, any human being from any age or any culture or any class could look at them and say "man" or "woman".
Can't say that about race or ethnicity, can't say that about religion or socioeconomics.
It's the only "actual" binary we're got, despite the fact that under the skin, in our hearts and in our libidos there's every possibility in between.
I find it completely fascinating.
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The Saddest thing is that my ICQ list is massive from years of aquiring contacts but these days the only people online any more are people I actually live with.
Is everyone else dead? Did they just change their usernames? Are they blocking me?
I Just. Don't. Know.
What we need more of is Science
Junk improving science is something everyone can agree on.
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Junk improving science is something everyone can agree on.
Quoted for truth. Also, CAN'D. That's awesome.
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Hey Doomglobe - I think you pretty much got it right on the first go.
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The Saddest thing is that my ICQ list is massive from years of aquiring contacts but these days the only people online any more are people I actually live with.
ICQ still exists? It's been at least two computers since I bothered loading it. I had a seven-digit number back in the day, but no one I knew from it still used it. They moved onto AIM and Y! Messenger. It was mostly people from the Philippines trying to get into America left on there, as I recall.
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The saddest thing is doing all manner of yard work, and then walking to the neighborhood 7/11 for a lemonade. I purchased the 32 oz. variety of Big Gulp. As an aside, when I was a youth, this was the HOLY CRAP size fountain soda. Certainly that fashion of soda is one that would be worked on over the course of a day, maybe two! Now, it is the smallest of the Big Gulp line. It is the Big Gulp that the other Big Gulps look on in pity. Sometimes, they think about culling the 32 oz. Gulp. It would be an act of pitty, to end the suffering of their litter's runt.
As an aside to the aside, we also had in this area growing up, the Big Juan. A local taco chain would give you a Big Juan meal, with a plastic Big Juan cup. I imagine this was a poor time to grow up with the name Juan, and be an undersized Juan. The indignity of constantly being referred to as Big Juan in a sarcastic manner.
The point however, is it is not the saddest thing to be the smallest of the Big Gulps, or the be an inappropriately size referenced Juan, but rather, to pay for a lemonade, and then knock it over on the counter, directly into the open cargoish pocket of your waiting pant, your waiting pant that is made of a duc material that shouldn't hold liquids as neatly as it does, directly onto your cellphone, thus rendering it inert.
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I'm not sure about the saddest, but that is an array of sad things, certainly. Bonus points for using the rare singular form on "#####."
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[The saddest thing]
Nooooooooo!
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The Saddest Thing (http://saddestthing.com/)
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The... Saddest Thing.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090914/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_mcdonald_s_employee (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090914/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_mcdonald_s_employee)
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What is sad about that is the lack of detail in that report. McDonald's must have been a 100% different place when that man started working. What was it like? How and why did he stay on through so much change? There has to be a story there.
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Yeah, honestly I see absolutely nothing sad about that story. The guy found a place where he fit in and made a valuable contribution for 50 years. It's easy to do a hell of a lot worse than that in life.
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I guess Mike considers it sad because it's a story about an old man spent his entire career doing a job that is usually handled by teenagers. But I saw a story about a man that was gainfully employed his entire career without a single interruption. One could do much worse than that.
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Less "a job usually handled by teenagers" and more, hmmmmm.
More "a job where almost no one, customer or co-worker, treats you with simple human dignity ever".
Which probably flows OUT of the perception that it is a job for teenagers only but yeah.
A lifetime of people telling their kids, right in front of you, that you're what happens if they don't go to school. A lifetime of people snickering behind your back that you probably spit in that burger. A lifetime of people looking at you with the assumption that you must either be developmentally-disabled or spent time in prison and this is the only job that will hire you.
Fifty years of having to say "would you like to try our new thing that we probably won't be serving in three months?" and assholes swearing at you through a tinny microphone and, no, actually they'd like a ridiculously modified and confusing order and if you get it wrong because they were disorganized about it, you get yelled at.
250 days a year, 50 years? Of that?
I'm not saying that a steady job ain't a steady job. The guy definitely worked. But that's what MAKES it the saddest thing.
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Yeah, but maybe he likes it there?
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See, that's why there's a story there, because I think the situation may not be at all what LFM is imagining. No doubt the first McD's franchises were mom and pop businesses of a very different nature. If this one has been around so long, how much of that quality has it retained? Are the original owners still involved? Have they somehow kept it a worthwhile place to work despite corporate pressures?
I think it's likely that this is not the same as someone getting a job at 18 in a McD's now and keeping it all his adult life, and that's what's interesting to me. Or, of course, it could just be a story of someone who manages not to give a fuck about what other people think of him, and that's a pretty rare quality that would be a good story too.
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More "a job where almost no one, customer or co-worker, treats you with simple human dignity ever".
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
Quit projecting.
Lots of people treat everyone with human dignity. Most everybody who has ever had a fast food job, or a retail job treats such workers well. And I'm willing to bet most of his co-workers treated him just fine. Sure, there are assholes everywhere. There are also saints everywhere. All of us deal with them everyday.
It is not a sad thing to have done a job (even an unpleasant job) well for a long time. It is very easy for me to imagine that this was a challenging and rewarding job for this man. It would have been much sadder if the guy never found a place he could make a legitimate contribution for 50 years of his life. He found a workplace where he is happy. Who the fuck are you to tell him it's not good enough?
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Quit projecting.
Usually telling someone to give up on his/her entire goddam vocation would be rude, but in this case it is just the raddest thing.
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Look, I understand being non-judgemental and I understand the joy of playing the devil's advocate to a person's point of view, especially mine, but...
Certainly, you've BEEN in a MacDonalds. Certainly, you've SEEN how the employees are generally treated by the customers and by each other in a MacDonalds.
As much as it would probably make me sleep better at night to believe that there are people in the world who could find that life fulfilling and, hence, I didn't have to feel completely guilty when interacting with people stuck in humiliating positions like that just to get by... no. Like, no.
All being spat upon by obese children for not having the right Happy Meal toy that week. Humans weren't designed for that. Sure, we can rationalize that, we can tolerate that, we can adapt to it while we die a little inside as the equal and opposite reaction to that adaptation but, like, no. No.
It sounds like prison. It sounds like hell. Especially that tiny detail of "oh, someone remembered he went to a baseball game once, let's get him a team jacket and pretend that means we know him in a meaningful way, somehow". Oh man, I wanna jump in a time machine and give him his life back.
And, yeah, of course I'm projecting. The totality of being a human amoungst other humans is an act of projection. That doesn't invalidate my feelings for the guy.
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lfm, have you ever worked at a mcdonald's or any other fast-food-type establishment?
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The totality of being a human amoungst other humans is an act of projection.
(someone legendary for projecting says everybody is projecting oh the gall of it)
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I try to treat everyone with dignity.
Who's up for some Mickey D's y'all?
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My wife's sister has a son with Down's Syndrome. He's about 32 - 33 now. He's worked for Target for 10 years now, cleaning up shelves and bringing in carts from the parking lot. He loves his job and is proud to do it. Would I feel the same way about that job? No, but everybody is not me.
I've worked fast food and lots of other "shitty" jobs. Know where I was treated the absolute worst? In my first job as a lawyer.
Dignity is where you find it. If this guy really felt degraded by his work, he wouldn't have stayed there 50 years.
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I try to treat everyone with dignity.
Who's up for some Mickey D's y'all?
Not me. I hate McDonald's food.
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Not me. I hate McDonald's food.
I've been eating some really good (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/3904470634/) burgers (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/3859879967/) lately (not from McDonald's), but they do make a good french fry.
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God dam you guys, all this talk is making me crave McD's for lunch, shit.
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sMets, people who work at mcd's do so because they either want to or have to. Either way its their best available option and you should appreciate mcd's for providing those jobs so that otherwise unemployable people are able to feed their families. It is unclear what your best alternative is.
One time at mcd's I handed the cashier my money by putting it on the table and she threw a fit because I didn't hand it to her hand-to-hand, because she took that as some kind of insult. She told my friend, the next customer, that I didn't respect her and that people like me didn't realize that people working at mcd's do so because its the best they can do and they have families to support. Working at mcd's was the only job that allowed her to work hours that complimented her childrens' school schedules.
Its not hell. Hell would be a situation where she wasn't able to get a job at all.
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For some people all they want is a humble, steady job without a lot of pain and pressure. For some people the quality of the life they lead outside their job is more important than what they do to pay the bills.
I mean I don't doubt that there are people out there who do spend their lives bitter and depressed, trapped in jobs they perceive as horrible and beneath them. But that's more about the person than the job. If the dude wanted more in life he would've surely gone after it.
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Plenty of the people who are bitter and trapped in jobs they hate are people with a ton of education making a ton of money in jobs they worked all their lives to get. To assume that everyone who works with their hands is miserable and humiliated and wishes they were more like you, or that everyone who has a fancy title is full of joy and satisfaction, is just basically fucked up and totally ignorant.
Speaking as someone who has a PhD and has worked picking up animal shit, LFM, I know which job I would pick if I were offered the choice again, and it would NOT be being a college professor again. And basically, fuck you if you would look down on it, you know?
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Plenty of the people who are bitter and trapped in jobs they hate are people with a ton of education making a ton of money in jobs they worked all their lives to get. To assume that everyone who works with their hands is miserable and humiliated and wishes they were more like you, or that everyone who has a fancy title is full of joy and satisfaction, is just basically fucked up and totally ignorant.
Speaking as someone who has a PhD and has worked picking up animal shit, LFM, I know which job I would pick if I were offered the choice again, and it would NOT be being a college professor again. And basically, fuck you if you would look down on it, you know?
Did... did WOMBAT just drop two F-bombs in anger?
Dude, LFM, you fucked up big time.
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Do I really not cuss all the time here? I must edit myself more than I realize. One of the things I like the most about the picking-up-shit jobs is that we can say "fuck" as often as we want. Fuckity fucky fuck.
But in the old days before that, I had a button one of my students gave me that said "I only yell because I care." Let me put that button on for a moment. I would like to be clear that I am really very fond of my imaginary friend LFM. But he really needs to get off his ass and accomplish something he is proud of, because I think that would go a long way to curing his Problem.
OK, now I am getting down off my telling-the-younguns-how-to-run-their-lives high hoss.
It seriously pushes my buttons to make assumptions about people based on their jobs. Some of the most miserable bastards I know are tenured PhDs. Some of the best, most skillful, hardest working people I know pick up shit for a living. What's more, some of the latter people feel sort of bad about themselves because they didn't go to college, or enough college, or do whatever is supposed to make you a more valuable person - like a miserable bastard college professor. And that fuck*ng pisses me off, so don't you dare add to it by assuming they are pathetic creatures who were incapable of making anything of themselves.
OK, I'm done. I think.
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i feel like what we are missing about LFM's statements, no matter how ridiculous-assumption-making they may be, is that... McD is a really shitty company to work for. I have read books about this. They do not treat their employees well.
Do we agree that sometimes someone can get fucked without knowing they're getting fucked? It is very possible for people to be happy doing something that is completely horrible... in fact, that is what happens most of the time when people are happy.
Does that mean they're pathetic? No. It means they're the same as most people. Getting fucked over.
That doesn't mean it's OK.
Sure, a lot of people work jobs that suck. Most people.
But that doesn't mean it doesn't suck that, you know, the minimum wage is really low, and is not sufficiently adjusted for cost-of-living changes and inflation over the decades. It doesn't mean that it doesn't suck that when McD workers try to unionize they shut down the location and open another one down the street.
My least-favorite thing in the entire world is the "life isn't fair, get used to it" chain of argument.
Life isn't fair because of people who say that shit. 90% of the time when you hear "life isn't fair," it is from someone who is fuck*ng you over. Fuck.
there are some things about life that aren't fair, and that nothing can change. Everyone dies. Sometimes when you're old you can't pee as much as you want to.
But there are some things in life that aren't fair because people are assholes, and some of those things can be fixed.
What I am saying is, I guess...
good for him if he is proud of this. good for him for finding a job he likes and can take satisfaction in.
But it is still sad that McDonalds exists by manipulating a lot of things that are bad in the world.
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I really wish at some point I had figured out the whole yelling-to-get-my-point across thing. Everytime I try it, my message gets lost in how mad I'm feeling and it ends up puzzling/upsetting the target of my wrath, rather than motivating them. People say they like how I handle stressful situations by talking so calmly - but thats only because the only effective alternative for me would be violence. Which is illegal. Bluffing is tough too, because I'm teeny-tiny. Nothing worse than yelling at someone and having them laugh because I'm so cute.
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You can watch video of the retirement party:
http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=184631 (http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=184631)
The immediately previous owner (he sold it to his son) says "We don't fire anyone, they fire themselves. If you show up on time and are friendly and honest you can stay forever."
Jaydub, no one ever laughs at me when I'm mad because I'm little. You must not be doing it right.
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When I first read the article I thought it was sad. But, and I think Wombat touched on this, though directly to LFM, it's because I'm unsatisfied with my career and my academic choices. Here I am with a college degree and I hate my job and don't know what my next step is, and i just turned 30. So really my first thought was "there but for the grace of God..." and it was depressing. But then I thought, "how nice this guy seems to have enjoyed this job for so long and is getting recognized." The only sad thing about it to me after that was all he got was some fuck*ng cake? Come on McDonald's, at least give him a nice watch or something!
But yeah, the whole projecting thing.
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I'm saying this to no one in particular, so no one in particular has to reply, really
[offtopic]
(It must be acknowledged, of course, that projecting is paramount to a writer. It's what amounts in the end to imagination, "putting oneself in someone else's shoes". However, it's always advisable to build those projections from experience rather than from fanciful (I mean ridiculous) notions that have no bearing in reality (like a hilarious tirade, in another thread, about how "like, if you're really honestly looking to get into fiction writing, you shouldn't be allowed to actually get a degree higher than a bachelor's in anything English or literature related"). Statements that bear the mark of the mind too involved with itself, thinking that what applies to it necessarily applies to everybody else. That type of self-involved recursiveness (like saying that you project because projecting is the norm in the human set) can result in nothing but banality (the epiphany-per-paragraph, the solemnity, the fixation in stoic losers (that apparently would remain losers even when super-powered) which in the end are little more than see-through stand-ins for the author. It reminds me a bit of David Foster Wallace (in tone, not in technique or muscle, of course) - and see what good it did to him.)
[/offtopic]
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Jaydub, no one ever laughs at me when I'm mad because I'm little. You must not be doing it right.
Yeah, that was the thesis of my post. No one gives lessons on "intimidating yelling". Except perhaps parents. Mine didn't yell. We got grounded, or smacked with the wooden spoon. I do get results with my method, but at considerable cost to my blood pressure. Keeping the outer cool while stress and anger pounds inside is taxing.
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I've been eating some really good (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/3904470634/) burgers (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/3859879967/) lately (not from McDonald's), but they do make a good french fry.
I'm a burger fanatic. If you are too you should check out this blog (http://aht.seriouseats.com/).
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I'm a burger fanatic. If you are too you should check out this blog (http://aht.seriouseats.com/).
A lot of people are calling bullshit on this burger (http://huggingthecoast.com/2009/09/01/porcini-infused-wagyu-burger-with-ponzu-onion-marmalade-recipe/).
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saying that you project because projecting is the norm in the human set
actually, it is.
the only people who are human and do not project are severely autistic people, as far as I am aware.
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actually, it is.
I'm not disputing this as an isolated fact, but as an argument viable to be used to defend LFM's position. Because if it was projecting, then it wasn't valid as an argument regarding the purported sadness of the life of the McDonald's dude.
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saying that people (through their choices) fuck themselves over
This is completely different from what I am talking about. I am talking about getting fucked over by the results of large corporations doing what they do; seek the profit motive. Getting fucked over by people who get their news from Glenn Beck and then vote. Getting fucked over by the fact that because of subsidies, the cheapest food is food that is unhealthy and inefficient environmentally.
As far as books telling you McDonald's is a shitty-to-employees company, [...] cease to exist
But there are companies that treat employees well. Apparently, for example, this McDonald's location has treated this man well. Target treats its employees better than WalMart.
The way we get companies to treat their employees well is this: make it illegal for them not to. Enforce the right to unionize, raise minimum wages, etc. As often cited in these kinds of books, "real" minimum wage as adjusted for inflation has gone down consistently over the last (however many) years, while executive compensation has gone up. What changed? My 10th grade history teacher, in our unit on East Asia, cited some statistic like "managers in Japan are paid 20 times what their workers are paid"
"BOO!"
"oh, but in the US, it's like 50 times."
"oh. But. They deserve to be paid that much more!"
bullshit.
any legislation to give anyone a break, ever, gets shot down with bullshit arguments about hurting businesses. fuck that noise. fuck it in the ear.
As far as peering into peoples lives and determining their relative crumminess quotient and whether or not they should be happy or not...who the heck are you? Some moral and all knowing overseer sitting in judgment of their existence and rating it against your own framework? Muy hubris.
This is not at all what I'm saying. People can be happy with whatever they're happy with. Do you think you don't judge anything, ever? I'm not allowed to judge that McDonald's treats its workers badly? Fuck you. McDonald's is a shitty corporation that has gotten obscenely wealthy by making us fat and poor.
Is this due to people's own stupidity?
probably, but that doesn't make it OK.
If the answer is 'without 'em' please justify removing that choice from my table through what would necessarily be legislative acts.
Well, I would say that someone's right to earn a living wage is superior to your right to eat shitty cheap food. I am comfortable with that argument.
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When I first read the article I thought it was sad. But, and I think Wombat touched on this, though directly to LFM, it's because I'm unsatisfied with my career and my academic choices. Here I am with a college degree and I hate my job and don't know what my next step is, and i just turned 30. So really my first thought was "there but for the grace of God..." and it was depressing. But then I thought, "how nice this guy seems to have enjoyed this job for so long and is getting recognized." The only sad thing about it to me after that was all he got was some fuck*ng cake? Come on McDonald's, at least give him a nice watch or something!
But yeah, the whole projecting thing.
I think the reaction someone in your position should have is not "there but for the grace of God," but "how do I get some of that?" What we all want is to find a job we'll be happy in for fifty years, right?
You know, although it wasn't 100% clear if this was a retirement party, I never understand why they give watches to people who are retiring - aren't they supposed to not have to get anywhere on time anymore?
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Oh sure, I understand that. But, I have worked those kind of jobs before, and they are not for me. So first when I read that he had been there for so damn long, I thought about a few guys that have been doing my job for 20+ years and seem miserable, and the thought that I will be in this job for that long makes me want to slit my wrists. Clearly that's not the case here. But, as I said, I changed my mind pretty quickly. I would like some of that, just not at McDonald's.
But how about this for a retirement gift. A $5k watch with a blank face? (And I don't think he's retiring, I was just saying it may have been nicer to give him something more than cake, but maybe that jersey did mean a lot).
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Inev, this isn't about McDonalds as a corporate citizen or economic justice or anything like that. You no doubt have very valid points in that regard. Everything you say may be exactly correct, but it misses the point.
It's not about the employer at all, really. It's about this guy. He accomplished something by working 50 years, and something more by working in the same place for that long. Was he treated fairly by McDonalds or by our economic system? Who knows. Was he exploited? Who isn't? It's not about what was done to him, it's about what he did. He made a life for himself out of what he found at McDonalds.
It's presumptuous and condescending to assume that life he made was somehow sad or worth less because of who his employer was or what job he did.
Of course, this guy could have been a lousy employee for 50 years, and real shitheel to boot. It which case it's no better than he deserved.
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It's presumptuous and condescending to assume that life he made was somehow sad or worth less because of who his employer was or what job he did.
That is the thing, I am not saying that his life is sad or worth any less than he thinks it is. I am saying that the fact that he is happy with his life doesn't change the fact that most McDonald's employees are treated poorly. Maybe at this particular McDonald's he was treated well, and if so, great for him, and great for this McDonald's. If he was treated poorly/exploited and was still happy with that, then yes, maybe I would say that is a sad thing. It is very possible for some people to be happy and fulfilled doing something that, for most people, sucks, and that sucky situation is still sad even if some guy has found happiness in it. The same way people can be unhappy with what are considered by most to be "good" situations.
I am having trouble coming up with good examples that aren't stupidly extreme.
I guess something like...
my grandfather worked a series of crappy manual-labor jobs throughout his life, and was bitter that he hadn't been able to afford to go to college (some sort of falling-out with his parents which I am not clear on, they paid for his brother to go and not him). Does this mean he had a sad life? Not necessarily... he had 2 kids and a wife and a house and for all I know he was happy (he died before I was born). It's sad, to me, that he didn't have that opportunity. Does that mean he had a "sad life?" No.
I guess I was initially mostly responding to A-CAP's post. The fact that people end up at a job they hate, that is disrespected by the majority of people, because it is their only option, to me is a sad situation. The fact that most people hate their jobs or whatever does not make it less shitty.
I am unhappy with "this is the way it has always been" because there are a lot of things that always-were until they stopped.
I mean, look at say, Coal Miners back before OSHA and stuff. Living in the company town, getting black lung, child labor, etc. Maybe some people were happy with this, but it was still a really shitty situation that should be changed. I guess I get worried about "look at this person satisfied with their low-prestige job" stories because sometimes they seem like they're saying people should be satisfied with what they have and never fight for more.
Don't rock the boat if you want to keep food on the table.
Also, August, you are my favorite. I don't care who knows it, you always speak truth.
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It's presumptuous and condescending to assume that life he made was somehow sad or worth less because of who his employer was or what job he did.
QFT, brevity, and lack of cuss words.
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First off, no, no I've never worked one of those types of jobs... though I've worked some comparatively menial stuff. Nearly everyone I know other than myself has, though, and it has never been described to me as anything other than some fresh hell.
Second, I'm not saying that working that kind of job is bad or wrong or anything... what I am saying is that it is just crushingly sad to me that this dude has ONLY done that, for his entire adult life, the same way that I can't watch "It's A Wonderful Life" because it's just so shitty that George Bailey doesn't get to see an inch of the world and (by HEAVENLY MANDATE) is crucified against the town of Bedford Falls and how... that's supposed to be the happy ending, he gets to protect a town of incompetent co-dependents from Mr. Potter until the day he dies and then Wal-Mart does the same thing to the town that Potter was going to do to it except with more :) faces and American flags and Bibles.
If you're a kid and you're working that kind of job, it's just a bad job, if you've got limited abilities and that's all you can do, that's one thing, if you're an old-timer and you just need a part-time gig to get out of the house, that's another thing too but...
An entire life. The enormity of it, an entire life, just punching in and out for the Meatclown.
Lemme... gather my thoughts on this, I'll get back to y'all.
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I'm a burger fanatic. If you are too you should check out this blog (http://aht.seriouseats.com/).
OK, so I didn't want to weigh in on this thread because it has gotten into politics, and my politics basically only match up with G. K. Chesterton's, so pretty much no matter who I argue with I am going to get loudly told why I am wrong. But I had to point out that the top thing on that blog was people eating cheeseburgers on top of every mountain, and that, to my mind, is an unholy alliance of two completely separate nerdy things along the lines of yelling at every U2 song for sucking in its own specific way while riding in a solar-powered car, and I just want to say that we can do better than this, people.
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pst right beside your post is an edit button perfect for quick changes like that - just click the pencil
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VW gets a can for pointing out the dichotomy of climbing mountains and eating hamburgers.
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OK, so I didn't want to weigh in on this thread because it has gotten into politics, and my politics basically only match up with G. K. Chesterton's, so pretty much no matter who I argue with I am going to get loudly told why I am wrong. But I had to point out that the top thing on that blog was people eating cheeseburgers on top of every mountain, and that, to my mind, is an unholy alliance of two completely separate nerdy things along the lines of yelling at every U2 song for sucking in its own specific way while riding in a solar-powered car, and I just want to say that we can do better than this, people.
Yes. Perhaps they could eat a taco inside a cheese burger wrapped in a pizza, while sitting in a hot tub that they drug to the top of that mountain. (Doesn't more make better?)
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Pizza?! Now that's what I call a taco!
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favorite joke ever.
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If you can climb a mountain, odds are you haven't eaten at McDonalds in several years, if ever.
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If you can climb a mountain, odds are you haven't eaten at McDonalds in several years, if ever.
the appalachians close to my neignborhood are tiny.
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I guess what I'm trying to say is that...
It is sad that the dude's life was limited to that, that quiet desperation. Not that he was a bad person for it... but my pity and my empathy for the guy is boundless, I wish the world didn't work in a manner that could make a man flip burgers 250 days a year in one place for the lionshare of a life and...
Then, at the end of it all, that's all he's ever seen and he's a four-paragraph human interest story .
I wish this man could'a seen the world.
Dignity of a day's work, different strokes for different folks, you can say alla that and you have your points but this dude, there was a world out there and that was what fate gave the dude. It's heartbreaking.
There are worse things in the world to project, I would imagine, than self-pity.
Is the actual sane response to "a man flipped burgers for fifty years straight" "well, he must've had a good time because he just kept doing it!"? I'm sorry, I don't buy that as the sane response.
"What an awful world it is forced him to spend his life flipping burgers" probably isn't the sanest response either but I have to think it's more productive than going the other way and just.... projecting monk-like dignity onto his life of petty servitude, either.
That answer sounds more like an attempt to maintain status-quo than some kind of "live and let live" thing.
It seems like a tidy way to resolve an entirely unjust system of living. At least frantic over-identification isn't just a shrug, "oh fifty years of doing a needed task I don't want to do, glad he did it, hope he liked it", man, that ain't a valediction I'd wish on a rabid dog.
Yes, it's all projection, everything's projection.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is doubtlessly projection, "love thy neighbor" is certainly projection, "desire is suffering" is probably right up there with it all. So is greedy people reading greed into others to justify their greed and so nobody has any medicine. So is people who can't fully believe in God so they wage war on people with other gods that it might talk them into believing themselves.
The ringworm thing you guys were talking about in that other thread. All of it.
Knee-jerk compassion might be crazy but the instant creation of a tight reality-preserving narrative where he REALLY REALLY LIKED having people curse him out for not omitting pickles for the balance of his adult life, man, that's at least as crazy and probably at least a little bit more counterproductive.
I wish that all the energy we put into justifying things as they are, creating inequalities to protect ourselves from other inequalities, creating wars to protect us into other wars, I wish we'd put that energy instead into helping people like this dude see a little bit more of the world before he shuffles off to the grave.
And sure, I hope that people wish me the same, hell yes, who wouldn't?
And sure, it's probably not completely emotionally healthy to feel that way.
But I just wanna swoop down like a motherfuck*ng angel of light into this man's past and I wanna give him a suitcase and I want him to cover it with travel labels from Italy and Baghdad and Samarkand...
And just because that's impossible doesn't mean it's wrong.
I... guess that's what I was trying to say.
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It is sad that the dude's life was limited to that, that quiet desperation.[...] Yes, it's all projection, everything's projection.
Well, why should anyone care about the little Mcdonald's worker that lives inside your head?
I wish that all the energy we put into justifying things as they are, creating inequalities to protect ourselves from other inequalities, creating wars to protect us into other blahblahblorp.
(http://17.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kq2c9rOUOu1qzryvmo1_100.jpg)
But I just wanna swoop down like a motherfuck*ng angel of light into this man's past and I wanna give him a suitcase and I want him to cover it with travel labels from Italy and Baghdad and Samarkand...
As for me, I just want to teach the world to sing. Does anybody even remember laughter?
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my politics basically only match up with G. K. Chesterton's,
I haven't read a lot of Chesterton's essays, but he was pretty conservative, no? Feel free to ignore the personal question, but are you a Roman Catholic?
Loved Father Brown, though.
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I haven't read a lot of Chesterton's essays, but he was pretty conservative, no? Feel free to ignore the personal question, but are you a Roman Catholic?
Loved Father Brown, though.
Conservative in some ways, immensely radical (by today's standards) in others. Yes, I am a Roman Catholic.
I too love Father Brown.
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(meanwhile, I submit that the saddest thing is the headline "Children die at milk party" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4692949.stm) [it is also the cutest, but]).
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But I just wanna swoop down like a motherfuck*ng angel of light into this man's past and I wanna give him a suitcase and I want him to cover it with travel labels from Italy and Baghdad and Samarkand...
He's retired, he's not dead.
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I kinda have some sympathy for smets' position. There seem to be some assumptions going on both sides. I did a google search to see if there was an article with quotes from the guy so that we can get some insight. I don't think he's retired.
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world/mcdonalds-employee-leonard-rhomberg-honored-for-50-years-of-service_100247918.html
http://www.fox2now.com/ktvi-mcdonalds-employee-50th-anniversary-090909,0,1198202.story
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But I just wanna swoop down like a motherfuck*ng angel of light into this man's past and I wanna give him a suitcase and I want him to cover it with travel labels from Italy and Baghdad and Samarkand...
Samarkand is kind of "bleh." Chipped a tooth there. They've fallen on hard times, mostly selling imported chinese junk to tourists. Lots of gypsies burning wild rue to annoy passersby into paying them.
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I dunno. I can see where some of you all might not appreciate my tendency to trail off into extreme positions when I'm writing in a message board box, hell I'm not always so fond of it myself, but I just don't get where reacting to the headline "man's entire life consisted of disrespected and soul-crushing job" with "holy crap, that's sad, I wish things had gone better for this dude"...
I don't get where that's such a way out reaction. I don't get how the assumed reaction of the vast majority of people has been "oh it's a needed job/oh someone's gotta do it/oh maybe he figured out a way to tolerate it/oh maybe that's all he knows". I guess that's where I'm at a loss here.
When something bad happens to someone, my first jump isn't to rationalize how how it isn't that bad or how it was unavoidable or necessary or how the person brought in on themselves or whatever. My first jump is to imagine myself in that person's shoes, going through that experience and recoil in horror.
Maybe this is one of those things (I forget the word) where you go around your whole life thinking a way and you just assume that it's a natural pattern because it has never been directly challenged (it is killing me that I forget this word) but I guess this is one of those things.
Anyway, it perked the board up a bit. That's gotta count for something.
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Speaking as a liberal, this is the problem with liberal thinking: the assumption that everyone would want to be like you and live like you, and would feel like you, if they truly understood. For example, either on the surface or deep down we left wingers all believe that right wingers are either not smart, or else tragically misinformed. We can't help it, it's just the way we are. The logic of our positions is so clear to us that we have to assume that the only explanation is that you don't have the right facts to draw the conclusion, or are too dumb to see its logical obviousness.
Likewise there is the assumption that everyone would want to live like us if only they were fully informed about the wonderfulness of our way of life. For instance, that someone who lives in the same small town all his life is by definition someone who was too pathetic or too deprived to get out into the world. Because the rightness of wanting to experience strange things and do something that seems important is so obvious, we don't understand that maybe it involves a sacrifice of other values like being connected to a place and people for the long term. And that someone who makes a different choice between those values is not necessarily an idiot.
Some people are perfectly happy without ever seeing Samarkand, or even knowing where it is. They don't want you to buy them a ticket there. They are perfectly fine where they are. And that doesn't make you better than them.
Anyway, LFM, that is the flaw in your thinking. Really imagining yourself in someone else's shoes doesn't mean imagining what your thinking would do with the way those shoes feel. It's imagining what it would be like to be that person in those shoes. Not what would it be like to be YOU, miserable in that job. What would it be like to be the person who was authentically happy that way?
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Samarkand is kind of "bleh." Chipped a tooth there. They've fallen on hard times, mostly selling imported chinese junk to tourists. Lots of gypsies burning wild rue to annoy passersby into paying them.
Hella depressing. Been thinking about treating myself (at some point in the unguessable future) to some pretty basic Grand Tour stuff, maybe Greece, fuck it, but of course I suppose disappointments like these are only to be expected when one visits a place from history... oh, well.
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I guess I missed the extra bonus paragraphs of that article where it says "Mr. Rhomberg has never left Crestwood by more than ten miles, never took a few vacation weeks and went on a trip, never had a honeymoon on the Mediterranean or the Caribbean, never traveled at all, never learned more than was absolutely necessary to make burgers, and used his weekends to stare, unfulfilled, at travel advertisements in Reader's Digest and wonder if there could ever have been more to his life."
I mean apparently LFM read those paragraphs, where do I have to click for them?
Edit: So I decided to instead of just fantasizing about what he must or mustn't be like, go look for other information. Rhomberg is unmarried, and says that the only downside he feels to working at McDonald's so long is that his clothes smell like McDonald's, "especially with a dog around". He reminisces that when he started, a burger was 15 cents and "got more and more"; when the PR flack (or possibly a Fox reporter which is about the same thing) said "and better and better, right?" he became extremely noncommittal and said "Well, some people." He cleaned up after his own retirement party, although it is unclear whether this was an irony of duty required by contract or something he chose to do as a farewell. The franchise has been owned by the same family since he started working there, and it is this family that threw the retirement party rather than the McDonald's Corporation.
So there you go. All the information that a few minutes on Google turns up about Leonard Rhomberg of Crestwood, Missouri.
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I guess I missed the extra bonus paragraphs of that article where it says "Mr. Rhomberg has never left Crestwood by more than ten miles, never took a few vacation weeks and went on a trip, never had a honeymoon on the Mediterranean or the Caribbean, never traveled at all, never learned more than was absolutely necessary to make burgers, and used his weekends to stare, unfulfilled, at travel advertisements in Reader's Digest and wonder if there could ever have been more to his life."
I mean apparently LFM read those paragraphs, where do I have to click for them?
Edit: So I decided to instead of just fantasizing about what he must or mustn't be like, go look for other information. Rhomberg is unmarried, and says that the only downside he feels to working at McDonald's so long is that his clothes smell like McDonald's, "especially with a dog around". He reminisces that when he started, a burger was 15 cents and "got more and more"; when the PR flack (or possibly a Fox reporter which is about the same thing) said "and better and better, right?" he became extremely noncommittal and said "Well, some people." He cleaned up after his own retirement party, although it is unclear whether this was an irony of duty required by contract or something he chose to do as a farewell. The franchise has been owned by the same family since he started working there, and it is this family that threw the retirement party rather than the McDonald's Corporation.
So there you go. All the information that a few minutes on Google turns up about Leonard Rhomberg of Crestwood, Missouri.
I linked the video of that above. I thought it was sad and a little bit interesting that all he does at McDonald's is clean up and bus tables. I would wager that most McDonald's don't have anyone who does that full time and that he's somewhat of a throwback.
His bright, white, Wainwright jersey got stained with ketchup. Cleans up after his own party and his gift gets stained at work? Yeah, I do think that's at least a little sad.
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I'm gonna throw in with Mike. Goddamn, why doesn't this pathetic fuck just throw himself in front of a bus already?
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Hella depressing. Been thinking about treating myself (at some point in the unguessable future) to some pretty basic Grand Tour stuff, maybe Greece, fuck it, but of course I suppose disappointments like these are only to be expected when one visits a place from history... oh, well.
Bukhara is still pretty rad. Samarkand is ... eh, kind of big and desolate.
(http://chiaroscu.ro/registan.jpg) the registan (that might be the Shir Dor or Ulug Beg mosque)
(http://chiaroscu.ro/samarkand.jpg) the red circle is around me. that is a BIG facade
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I have eaten at the Crestwood, MO, McDonalds an non-zero number of times.
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I bet it was really clean. Am I right?
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Some people are perfectly happy without ever seeing Samarkand, or even knowing where it is. They don't want you to buy them a ticket there. They are perfectly fine where they are. And that doesn't make you better than them.
Yeah, the part that makes us better than them is the part where they call you a fag and then broomhandle you in the locker room.
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I bet it was really clean. Am I right?
Nope. There were puddles of poorly aimed spittle everywhere, left by the crowds of snide customers who pointed and laughed at this poor older fellow struggling to clean up. He was hindered by his pre-pubescent supervisor, who slapped him on his bald head like Benny Hill did Jackie Todd. He seemed to be on the verge of tears, and as I walked out the door he caught my eye. He gave me a look of such desperation as I shall never forget.
I told him McDonald's wasn't paying him 75 cents an hour to stand around gawking, spit my gum on the floor and left.
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Oh Frank, that was the post of the year.
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I know you just won Post of the Year, I'm happy for you, and I'ma let you finish, but Wombat wrote the best post of all time!
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Seriously, though, was it pretty clean? Did you notice? I guess most McDonald's are clean.
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I have been in some really dirty McDonald's.
like, I think I had not thought before about how unappetizing it is to see spilled food. Ugh.
At my burrito-making job they had me clean tables/spills and stuff a lot, because for some reason everyone else I worked with hated cleaning up.
I get satisfaction out of cleaning things up. Which is weird, because I am a messy guy.
I think the only time I was told that I "work hard" was at that job. It was a weird feeling.
But also, I was just so damn bad at making burritos as fast as people wanted them. I spent a lot of time cleaning dishes, cleaning tables, etc, which I guess was good for everyone involved.
When I make a burrito, I want it to be a good burrito, not a fast burrito.
(I am so good at wrapping burritos now, though. People are often impressed by my burrito-wrapping.)
My other job like that was the supermarket. A lot of my coworkers ended the day by buying a 6-pack and a pack of ramen. Maybe I'm doing that damn "projecting" thing, but that made me get the impression that they led horrible lives filled with quiet desperation.
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the dirtiest fast-food joint i've ever been to was a truck stop fried-chicken joint with like three other locations, somewhere along I-40 in the middle of the country. arkansas, oklahoma, who cares. my heart bled for the employees' pitiful situation but damnit they shoulda heard about that pileup and planned accordingly.
like hell i'm waitin thirty goddamn minutes for some chicken fingers, just gime the damn legs and breast and wing you got left.
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Yeah, the part that makes us better than them is the part where they call you a fag and then broomhandle you in the locker room.
And this is why there is no hope for America. Because the debate is dominated by leftwingers who think everyone on the other side is like that. and rightwingers who think everyone on the other side is a fascist communist who loves to kill babies.
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I have eaten at the Crestwood, MO, McDonalds an non-zero number of times.
You're joking, right? Because I would be more impressed by how exotic and fantastically coincidentally this is than if you told me you had been to Samarkand.
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You're joking, right? Because I would be more impressed by how exotic and fantastically coincidentally this is than if you told me you had been to Samarkand.
Not in the least. Both my wife's mother and sister live just outside of Crestwood, which is a nice South St Louis County suburb. It's been a few years, but I've definitely been there for breakfast a couple of times. And probably for lunch, but that would have been longer ago because my kids are no longer little and thus no longer so enamored with Happy Meals.
What's it like? It's a dang ol' McDonald's. It's like every other dang ol' McDonald's. That is the point of McDonald's, isn't it?
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Bukhara is still pretty rad. Samarkand is ... eh, kind of big and desolate.
(http://chiaroscu.ro/registan.jpg) the registan (that might be the Shir Dor or Ulug Beg mosque)
(http://chiaroscu.ro/samarkand.jpg) the red circle is around me. that is a BIG facade
Supercool [I'm a shameless groupie for buildings From History]. Big and desolate, I can dig that. Hell, can't be worse than Brasília (btw, last sentence works without a comma, too)...
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Really imagining yourself in someone else's shoes doesn't mean imagining what your thinking would do with the way those shoes feel. It's imagining what it would be like to be that person in those shoes.
Wombat hits on an unavoidable truth: everyone has differently-shaped feet.
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Yeah. Mine are shaped like a duck's, and it's hell to find footwear that fits.
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I wish that I had duck feet.
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what, no asian deli near you?
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Yeah. Mine are shaped like a duck's, and it's hell to find footwear that fits.
Someone, somewhere has made fetish porn of this.
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Not in the least. Both my wife's mother and sister live just outside of Crestwood, which is a nice South St Louis County suburb. It's been a few years, but I've definitely been there for breakfast a couple of times. And probably for lunch, but that would have been longer ago because my kids are no longer little and thus no longer so enamored with Happy Meals.
What's it like? It's a dang ol' McDonald's. It's like every other dang ol' McDonald's. That is the point of McDonald's, isn't it?
Have you been to the Imo's in Kirkwood where the guy who kidnapped those two buys (one for several years) worked? Was your pizza held for an excessive period of time?
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Have you been to the Imo's in Kirkwood where the guy who kidnapped those two buys (one for several years) worked? Was your pizza held for an excessive period of time?
I don't think I have. But the Mrs. definitely knows that area well.
I love me some Imo's though.
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To be completely honest, the only thing I know about Samarkand is that it was one of the places George Bailey had wanted to go.
Just to lay it out there.
(And no, of course I don't think the guy should die because he's worthless, I think the guy should have lived because he was worthwhile. Because everyone is.)
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To be completely honest, the only thing I know about Samarkand is that it was one of the places George Bailey had wanted to go.
I guess cause he had to barf:
(http://chiaroscu.ro/barf.jpg)
(purchased in Samarkand, 2003)
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That is beautiful.
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Barf means snow.
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(And no, of course I don't think the guy should die because he's worthless, I think the guy should have lived because he was worthwhile. Because everyone is.)
But he's already wasted his entire life, there's nothing left for him to do now, but eat a bullet.
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Brasília is hell of interesting. they just built a giant city in the middle of nowhere. also, apparently the parking is convenient.
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http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28098
I have been to some seriously fucked-up McDonalds, like this one. The most frustrating one was in Albuquerque, that could seemingly never get its employee mix right. I remember one time when there were like six people cleaning, and only one register open with a huge line. And another time when ALL the registers were open, and so many people ordering and waiting... and no food coming over the counter for about ten minutes.
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And this is why there is no hope for America. Because the debate is dominated by leftwingers who think everyone on the other side is like that. and rightwingers who think everyone on the other side is a fascist communist who loves to kill babies.
See, sure. Sure.
But here's the difference. Nobody I have ever met was a communist, or a fascist, or enjoyed killing babies. Maybe LFM, but no one in real life.
I have, though, I have met people who thought the n*****s are getting too uppity, and guys who were afraid to come out because they knew their friends would beat the shit out of them.
Gay people actually do get murdered. That's the difference. There are not any communists driving around the country murdering babies.
We have different opinions about when life begins, and you want to compare abortion clinics to Auschwitz? OK. I understand how if you think that unborn fetuses are people, that comparison completely makes sense. I get mad at people who pretend the abortion debate is simple.
But like, the KKK exists. This isn't like "oh, it's a difference of opinion, some people think they exist." There are social conservatives who advocate murdering gay/black/jewish people.
That's the difference there. One side is imagining things that do not exist. Sure, there are abortion clinics. They have mission plans that are like, provide options to women. No one is saying "i opened this clinic to undermine the fabric of american society and murder babies." There are groups in america whose avowed purpose is "murder and intimidate non-whites."
Sure, call me condescending.
I have always been struck by the fact that, despite my urges to say oh you know, we're just coming at the problem from different backgrounds, it's rough, we should try to get along...
despite that, the radicals on one side think that we should like, you know, share things with each other more, and maybe that's a bad idea economically. maybe if we did that it would be stupid. maybe those people are kind of dicks about how they drive hybrids and only eat lettuce that has been pre-digested by a cow. Those people are pretty annoying. Probably some of them are willing to cross the line into legislating lifestyle, and saying you shouldn't be allowed to eat meat. Yeah, that's pretty shitty.
But the radicals on the other side either want to, or actually do, murder and assault people. They find other people's lifestyles so abhorrent that they are willing to murder them.
I'm not saying it's all of them, or even most of them. But come on. Stop pretending there isn't a difference there.
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Yes, please, who are these radical democrats murdering people because of their lifestyles.
I am completely aware of excesses of liberal radicalism historically, but I feel like a bigger issue in the US right now are liberals who are wimpy-wimp-wimps. I can think of maybe half a dozen violent liberal groups, and they are all not-so-recent.
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See, sure. Sure.
But here's the difference. Nobody I have ever met was a communist, or a fascist, or enjoyed killing babies. Maybe LFM, but no one in real life.
I have, though, I have met people who thought the n*****s are getting too uppity, and guys who were afraid to come out because they knew their friends would beat the shit out of them.
Gay people actually do get murdered. That's the difference. There are not any communists driving around the country murdering babies.
We have different opinions about when life begins, and you want to compare abortion clinics to Auschwitz? OK. I understand how if you think that unborn fetuses are people, that comparison completely makes sense. I get mad at people who pretend the abortion debate is simple.
But like, the KKK exists. This isn't like "oh, it's a difference of opinion, some people think they exist." There are social conservatives who advocate murdering gay/black/jewish people.
That's the difference there. One side is imagining things that do not exist. Sure, there are abortion clinics. They have mission plans that are like, provide options to women. No one is saying "i opened this clinic to undermine the fabric of american society and murder babies." There are groups in america whose avowed purpose is "murder and intimidate non-whites."
Sure, call me condescending.
I have always been struck by the fact that, despite my urges to say oh you know, we're just coming at the problem from different backgrounds, it's rough, we should try to get along...
despite that, the radicals on one side think that we should like, you know, share things with each other more, and maybe that's a bad idea economically. maybe if we did that it would be stupid. maybe those people are kind of dicks about how they drive hybrids and only eat lettuce that has been pre-digested by a cow. Those people are pretty annoying. Probably some of them are willing to cross the line into legislating lifestyle, and saying you shouldn't be allowed to eat meat. Yeah, that's pretty shitty.
But the radicals on the other side either want to, or actually do, murder and assault people. They find other people's lifestyles so abhorrent that they are willing to murder them.
I'm not saying it's all of them, or even most of them. But come on. Stop pretending there isn't a difference there.
You sure write a lot for someone with a small, simple point.
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You sure write a lot for someone with a small, simple point.
I normally get accused of the opposite thing and told that I did not sufficiently explain myself.
Ash-- The difference is that the lives of meat eaters are not changed at all by the existence of that guy. I eat meat all the time and am not scared to go to certain areas of the united states.
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The lives of meat eaters may not be changed by the existence of animal rights extremists, but the lives of everyone who works with lab animals is affected by it. Here's just the first article that was easy to find.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/22/animal.activists.ucla/ (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/22/animal.activists.ucla/)
LOS ANGELES, California -- On Earth Day on Wednesday, Dr. David Jentsch marched at the head of a column of UCLA students and faculty members to the chant of, "Stand up for science!" Across the street a smaller but equally vocal group of animal rights advocates chanted, "U-C-L-A, how many animals have you killed today!"
Until recently, Jentsch had never dreamed he would lead a political demonstration. But Jentsch's life took a sharp turn last month when his car was firebombed in his driveway. A radical group of animal rights activists claimed responsibility for the act.
"This is terror," Jentsch said. "There is no two ways about it. It's extremism. It's an attempt to intimidate."
It was the latest in a string of arson attacks against UCLA researchers who use animals in medical research projects. Since 2006, there have been seven attacks aimed at researcher's homes or cars. No arrests have been made in the cases, which are being investigated by an FBI lead task force on terrorism.
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i love animals, but human lives are more valuable.
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Yeah, most of the leftist bombings I have been aware of since the 60s were like, hey, janitors get out of here, we are making a point.
That is a little different than blowing people up and purposely killing doctors, no?
Also, everyone forget the murrah bombing? Maybe it is cause I am from Oklahoma, but I mean, come on.
Did we have our extra dose of smarm today?
Not that I can tell. Did we have our dose of ad hominem attacks today?
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I saw that keith had posted here, and I thought,
"oh, keith, he knows about History and Things, I will be glad to read his post"
and then I did, and I did feel glad, and it was good.
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The lives of meat eaters may not be changed by the existence of animal rights extremists, but the lives of everyone who works with lab animals is affected by it. Here's just the first article that was easy to find.
Was going to say this, I've worked with people who had to close down their lab basically out of fear for their lives because of the actions of animal rights activists (this was in the UK for what it's worth so don't think you guys have the monopoly on crazy or anything). Of course there are stem cell researchers these days in the same position. So I'm agreeing with Ash that these two groups have the same sickness that is just manifesting in two different ways.
That said I also agree with Inev that, at this moment in time, in western civilisation, it's the right wing crazies that are most ready to threaten violence against those who disagree with them.
Actually I'll amend that slightly: mainstream social conservatives seem much happier to embrace their more violent extremists than mainstream liberals are and really that's a bigger problem. There will always be crazy people, it's the actions of the sane people towards them that is important and at the moment social conservatives have decided they need the people who think killing abortionists is a good idea to make up numbers.
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Actually I'll amend that slightly: mainstream social conservatives seem much happier to embrace their more violent extremists than mainstream liberals are and really that's a bigger problem. There will always be crazy people, it's the actions of the sane people towards them that is important and at the moment social conservatives have decided they need the people who think killing abortionists is a good idea to make up numbers.
Quoted and canned for truth. I have met genuine violent-revolution type anarchists and socialists, and some of them have later been arrested for their violent crimes, but nobody in politics has decided they need to cater to the violently radical elements of the left and you don't have huge media outlets trying to say that their crimes were for the best even if they were technically premeditated murder. (As a bonus, at the same time the right wing is in the habit of trying to portray center-moderate policies like say a public option for health care or basic corporate oversight as left-wing communist extremism, and yells this lie loudly enough and often enough that people start believing it.)
Tangentially, archaeology is another field where you have violent action that would be classified as far-left; there are people who will, on the perceived behalf of the indigenous cultures being excavated, threaten and violently disrupt archaeological activity. I'm not talking about representatives of a given nation trying to get their sites protected (which is, in my opinion, a justifiable concern), but rather people acting supposedly on behalf of other or unknown societies being excavated to the point of threatened physical violence.
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Look man. It'd be better for the both of us if you just fuck*ng left that neolithic pottery alone.
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Look man. It'd be better for the both of us if you just fuck*ng left that neolithic pottery alone.
Anyone caught handling shards of pottery will be ... ostracized.
linguists, historians and classics majors will snicker and no one else will get it
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*sigh*
I get really mad at animal rights vegans. I had a page-long rant about it, but I deleted it because it served no purpose other than to make me feel good. The short version: animal rights activists are morally bad.
Also I just came up with a joke where a couple won't go down on each other, and the punchline is that they're vegans.
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Don't be hating on vegans.
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Anyone caught handling shards of pottery will be ... ostracized.
linguists, historians and classics majors will snicker and no one else will get it
in case you aren't and want to (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ostracize) (see origin)
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*sigh*
I get really mad at animal rights vegans. I had a page-long rant about it, but I deleted it because it served no purpose other than to make me feel good. The short version: animal rights activists are morally bad.
Also I just came up with a joke where a couple won't go down on each other, and the punchline is that they're vegans.
It's ok. I can say with some certainty that animal-rights vegans hate you even more.
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My ex-girlfriend underwent a most horrid transformation in front of my very eyes. One day she quit eating anything that had a face, and from then on, lunch meant... squash/aubergine sandwiches, soups made from roots, and antagonistic japanese mushrooms. I don't mean to be a smartass, she cooked some stuff that was actually good (albeit always in the bland side of good), but I have to say that the concept of a squash sandwich to this day makes me confused and angry (also hungry, because I'm not eating that).
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My ex-girlfriend underwent a most horrid transformation in front of my very eyes. One day she quit eating anything that had a face, and from then on, lunch meant... squash/aubergine sandwiches, soups made from roots, and antagonistic japanese mushrooms. I don't mean to be a smartass, she cooked some stuff that was actually good (albeit always in the bland side of good), but I have to say that the concept of a squash sandwich to this day makes me confused and angry (also hungry, because I'm not eating that).
putting a vegetable(by itself) in between 2 items that are made from a plant is on the opposite end of the food spectrum from:
(http://23.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kpeg55idkk1qzvnxpo1_500.jpg)
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putting a vegetable(by itself) in between 2 items that are made from a plant is on the opposite end of the food spectrum from:
Yes, yes it is. That looks Atkins Approved™.
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putting a vegetable(by itself) in between 2 items that are made from a plant is on the opposite end of the food spectrum from:
That image is blocked for me. You're not posting porn, are you? Some sort of man-woman-man sandwich?
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I think it's several layers of that gross new KFC "sandwich"
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my roommate keeps cooking this thing that is Spaghetti Squash. Spaghetti doesn't come from squash, dude, it comes from wheat and stuff. Stop feeding me weird squash fibers and saying it's spaghetti.
although I guess it was good for my stomach to take a break from another day of:
take a meat
add really heavily spiced sauce, and lots of oil
put on rice.
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although I guess it was good for my stomach to take a break from another day of:
take a meat
add really heavily spiced sauce, and lots of oil
put on rice.
Hmm, that sounds really good. I'll have to whip some of that up for dinner.
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It's ok. I can say with some certainty that animal-rights vegans hate you even more.
Well I'd kind of like to read the rant.
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yeah, it is delicious, but a week ago I realized I am getting love handles.
I do not love them.
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my roommate keeps cooking this thing that is Spaghetti Squash. Spaghetti doesn't come from squash, dude, it comes from wheat and stuff. Stop feeding me weird squash fibers and saying it's spaghetti.
I was at a business lunch once, and I ordered this, thinking I would receive spaghetti with a nice red sauce that featured some cut up squash.
Fuck!
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To be clear, it's pretty good-tasting.
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and what do you cook for your roommate
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he gets touchy if I say I want to cook. He takes it as me saying I dont' like what he cooks.
I clean everything, though. He is so messy.
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he gets touchy if I say I want to cook. He takes it as me saying I dont' like what he cooks.
I clean everything, though. He is so messy.
Sounds like a hell of a partnership. You two should get hitched.
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oh yeah, we are super gay for each other.
but like, in a way where he yells at me to grow a pair and get laid.
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but like, in a way where he yells at me to grow a pair and get laid.
It's good to know that people who exist do this to you too.
I was afraid that only we were this awesome.
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I heard that message twice today, and one of them was in the form "Everyone says, "***** and DB want to fuck each other, but are too stupid to do it." when I ask what ***** is up to lately."
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your name is #####?!
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No, he is DB. The girl is *****. Her name must be censored because it is a crime.
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See if we had a Today I'm gonna thread in an inaccessible part of the site, this is exactly the type of info it would be for.
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See if we had a Today I'm gonna thread in an inaccessible part of the site, this is exactly the type of info it would be for.
And if we had some weird way of rewarding people by giving them an inexplicable symbolic beverage, this is exactly the type of post it would be for.
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No, he is DB. The girl is *****. Her name must be censored because it is a crime.
Oh, I thought her name was *****, or #####.
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I eagerly await the day when someone registers an account under the name *****hoss#####.
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I eagerly await the day when someone registers an account under the name #####hoss******.
I always forget which one is which. Is that *****hoss#####, or #####hoss*****?
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I eagerly await the day when someone registers an account under the name #####hoss******.
That sounds like something %%%%% would do.
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#####hosspu$$yc*ck******, Now thats an exciting pair of trousers.
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That sounds like something %%%%% would do.
Ah, finally worked that one out.
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still have not figured that one out.
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bozack
edit: nope, maybe the numbers he or she was? long before my time here. Maybe there was somebody else who was numbers?
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Yeah, pretty sure his old number. But I can't remember what that was.
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no, his numbers switch to Bozack. good recall on that filter.
%%%%% predates touamb, doesn't it, it migrated with us from dumbrella. some banned user there i can't recall.
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no, his numbers switch to Bozack. good recall on that filter.
%%%%% predates touamb, doesn't it, it migrated with us from dumbrella. some banned user there i can't recall.
Correct on both counts.
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(http://ljplus.ru/img4/e/x/extel9/110524_017.jpg)
(In my head, the dad character has placed THE CLUB in the basketball hoop to teach his son a valuable lesson. The lesson the son is taking away is: People will be dicks to you.)
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Parenting isn't really all bad, then.
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So long as you don't get to invested in their happiness or live long enough to pay for their therapy I bet it could be a damn riot.
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My son is 15, and I had this really rad discussion with him about attitude after he said the word "SORRY" to me in the way only a 15 year old can.
"Zeb... you have to understand, I mean you gotta know that no matter what words you're saying, when you talk like that you're really saying FUCK YOU... you get that right?"
"YES."
"... oh. Message received then."
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I'm mildly astonished a 15 year old isn't doing his own laundry. Of course, that leads to re-wearing of clothes and eventually odours.
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Right now I am in a contest of wills over laundry. See, my clothes go in the laundry right side out and ready to fold and wear, I take care of that when I take them off. Since I provide help and guidance to the youngest one, so do his. I've advised the oldest boy to take the time to do the same, but he doesn't. So for a month now he's been getting them back, clean and folded, just like he gives them to me. I'm sure he decided not to let me 'win' and start doing it before hand and just squares them away and refolds them before putting them away, but I had to make an executive decision that I don't care. If he wants to do more work and I don't have to...fine.
I had to read this a few times before I figured out what the problem is. It's that you think that clothes shouldn't be inside-out when they are folded and put away?
I put away inside-out clothes all the time. You can put them rightside out when you put them on. It's not like it's more or less effort depending on when you do it. I've only stopped doing it recently for t-shirts because I ended up with so many t-shirts the same color that I couldn't tell them apart inside-out. But otherwise, you can live a fairly productive adult life with a closet full of clothes which are half inside out.
Also, I am pretty sure that sometimes I put clothes in the laundry that are the right way round and the laundry turns them inside out. That never happens to you?
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yeah, I turn them right-side-out when I am folding/putting them away.
When I came home from college my sophomore year, my mom was AMAZED AND ASTONISHED that I knew how to do my laundry. Did she think I was just wearing the same clothes over and over?
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My 31 year old spouse doesn't do his own laundry because if he did, the machine would never be free for me to use. He has teenager-like tendencies to leave stuff in the washer or dryer for days on end.
We did recently subdivide laundry responsibilities, though -- I sort, wash, and dry, and he folds and puts away.
I recognize that it doesn't actually cause any harm for laundry to go in the drawer inside-out, but...I can't do it. It's too hard on my delicate sensibilities. I take a devil-may-care attitude on a lot of things, but that's where I draw the line.
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Also, I am pretty sure that sometimes I put clothes in the laundry that are the right way round and the laundry turns them inside out. That never happens to you?
I insist that this is true, but my wife refuses to believe.
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I insist that this is true, but my wife refuses to believe.
I swear I read somewhere that this happens because, like, inside-out is the natural position for an article of clothing - after all, when you are making it, that's how it is. So when it's roughed up by the washing machine it's easy for it to end up back in that position.
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i was doing family laundry when i was between 10 and 12. also, hanging that shit up on a clothesline. asherdan 2* doesnt have it so bad as it is.
*he's your first, right?
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My mom put me in charge of my own clothes somewhere in the 12 - 14 range. My bedsheets and all the rest, too. Of course, I don't have kids so I can't speak to it, not really. Some clothes turn inside out, but it's maybe a 5% thing? However, if you leave the socks wadded into a ball, you aren't going to be happy with the result.
If you leave a young man in charge of his own laundry and don't ride a little bit of herd on him at the start, there's the bare possibility that scabies/mildew will result.
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My mom was of the mind that we should know how to do it, so she made us/asked us to do the occasional load, but she found it easier to do it herself the bulk of the time because she could not abide having it done half-assed (as teens are wont to do). I guess I'm basically the same way. But also, it doesn't seem fair to ask Pedro to do his own since I'm here with the laundry machines all day and it doesn't take much effort to throw in a load before lunch, then toss it in the dryer after I get the girl from school.
Boyface and Girlface actually like to help sort the clothes, and are getting to an age where they can do that fairly effectively if I give them specific parameters. And of course putting stuff on the clothesline is fun and exciting, too.
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Everybody does everybody's around here. Loads are pretty much constantly running, it seems like.
I started having to help with laundry at around 12 or so. I used to have to iron sheets! Not something that happens around here anymore.
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My house there was a dirty clothes basket that everything went into, generally mum would sort and wash it, hanging out duties were randomly allocated according to proximity to a full washing machine and then they were dumped on a bed in the spare room and people grabbed what was theirs as they needed it/when dad came into their room and told them to get their damn clothes out of the spare room.
Now I live on my own I do one load a week (actually more like once a week and two days, I've noticed my washing day keeps shifting through the week until suddenly I'll need to do two small loads in one week to reset it), everything goes in there and whites I care about get a soak once every month or two depending on how bad they are and how much I care about them (work shirts should be bright and crisp, gym shirts having filth on them from the bar bell is a badge of honour.
I usually will right side a shirt before I wash it but I won't always unroll the sleeves.
I have suit ##### that are getting faded because I wear and wash them way more often than I wear the matching jacket, would hanging them out inside out slow this process? It seems like it should.
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No, I don't think so, but washing them inside out might. That is what you do with nice jeans anyway.
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. And of course putting stuff on the clothesline is fun and exciting, too.
I remember enjoying line-dried clothes. I was too small to help much with getting them up, but I liked the way they smelled and felt once we took them down (and hiding from imaginary Bad Guys in the drying-sheets maze).
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I don't actually wear jeans unless it is somehow work related. I am more of a brown pant guy myself. I just know what yer supposed to do.
The only pair of jeans I have bought in the last 10 years cost $4 and had bleach stains on them within a week.
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I am slowly ruining my favorite pair of jeans (http://us.levi.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3672877&cp=3146842.3146854.3691988) through over-use/over-washing. I am pretty mad about this.
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I am mostly mad because they are also my newest pair of jeans. I am probably doing something dumb to make them wear out this way. Like washing them right-side-out. They are just starting to get a vaguely fuzzy look.
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You can wash them inside-out, and yes, hanging things in the sun can have a bleaching effect on some dyes (and is also a great way to get some kinds of stains out of t-shirts), so hanging them inside-out couldn't hurt.
Inev, wear your jeans more between washings (wait until they are noticeably dirty/stinky) and then don't dry them all the way in the dryer. Take them out when they're still slightly damp and hang them over the shower rod and let them finish that way.
You can also take a new, cheap shaving razor and "shave" the fabric to remove the fuzz. This works with pilled sweaters (particularly wool) as well. It takes forever, but it might get you a few more months out of the clothes.
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I am definitely washing them too much. I never realized how often I spill things on myself until I had these jeans... I guess because of the color?
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WAIT a minute. Jeans are SUPPOSED to wear out!
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I wear my jeans until they fall apart. I do not want my favorite pair of jeans to fall apart too fast. Why is that a problem. I have had them since January and they are already showing signs of wear.
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Maybe those pipe-cleaner legs on the trousers just strain the seams and wear faster.
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My jeans rarely wear out because I've changed sizes so many times in the last ten years that they don't fit long enough to fall to pieces. I've been everything between an 8 and a 14 plus maternity sizes, it's kind of ridiculous.
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Here, let me help you out here...you just need to recalibrate the way you're seeing this. Instead of feeling bad about how they're wearing out and no longer have that great look they had when you first pulled them on, enjoy the signs of wear, the stains, the changing in tone, tint and texture. Remember the good times you had with those bad boys, dawdle in memory over the events that led up to a riff or a blemish. Those are your fine #####, dude, savour the times you're having together.
This! See, this is the thing about jeans. They aren't like other clothes. They're like dogs. Or even people. They are different at all ages, but all ages are good.
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Y'know, that's a really good point to bring up. Most all of my jeans are designed to leave me enough room to move my junk out of the way so I don't bash myself to jelly on a saddle or pinch something off while trying to squat around a job.
I may be talking oranges to hossapples here.
AFAIK, dudes that wear lady-jeans have comfort issues because theyre made for folks with internal plumbing. i think skinny jeans that are made for dudes have junk-space cut into them.
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I wear my jeans until they fall apart. I do not want my favorite pair of jeans to fall apart too fast. Why is that a problem. I have had them since January and they are already showing signs of wear.
Maybe they were just made shitty. Sometimes it happens.
AFAIK, dudes that wear lady-jeans have comfort issues because theyre made for folks with internal plumbing. i think skinny jeans that are made for dudes have junk-space cut into them.
Made me think of this (http://youtu.be/Ut0SCZ9l9hc).
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that video is hella funny.
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I feel for inev here. Another pair of your favorite jeans isn't always like that pair of your favorite jeans.* I just lost a pair this last time home - now I'll be wearing them for all that Ash-type stuff. Which is fine, but I have lots of pairs of jeans for that.
*From discussions with my wife, I know that this happens to her a lot more than it happens to me. I think we've discussed this here before.
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I think, really, what makes them my favorite ##### is that they are my only non-blue #####. And they look great with my only non-sneaker shoes.
...so, today I bought a pair of white jeans. Who knows where this will go.
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Seriously, where . . . why . . . never mind. Is this what happens when you're wife isn't around to keep an eye on you?
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Was that...porn?
I guess it's like cake-sitting for neat freaks.
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Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WzvdhN7j7E) if we're lucky!
I had no idea.
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Those jeans really should have been tighter for that.
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Did somebody say White Denim? (http://vimeo.com/7579449)
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Yes, I have time to search "White #####" on youtube because of some internet fiction posting. That was too awesome not to share.
Yes . . . . this little "search" you performed for us earlier today is your first exposure to the balloon-sitting subculture.
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So you're saying Inev can improve upon the original?
Dude, you've been challenged!
Almost definitely, but only if he's willing to wear Spanx.
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jeggings