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[jay-ell]

An unpleasant human tendency: when my completely irresponsible roommate chastises me for leaving the front door unlocked, my impulse is to scream at him about all the times I have had to take care of shit he fucked up. When, really, that has no bearing on whether it was dumb to leave the front door unlocked. Because clearly it was.

Two things:

1) Good on you for recognizing this; Pedro and I both have to fight this impulse whenever we argue and it landed us in marriage counseling before we got it sorted.

2) Granted, I live in a safe suburb, but I totally leave my house without locking the door on a constant basis. For a while, neither Pedro nor I even bothered to carry a housekey. The back door is broken and doesn't lock, and even it did, if somebody wants to steal our stuff that bad they are going to do it regardless. We don't have much of value, and we would rather deal with missing stuff than missing stuff plus a broken window. The only time we lock up is when we're going to be out of town for a few days.

So, irresponsible? Probably. But obviously not so much that Bad Things Happening is inevitable. (Sorry.)

[side_show]

Awe!  There's something really sweet when an animal looks to you for reassurance.  Like when my pup hurries to stand behind me with those worried brown eyes when a loose Rottweiler comes charging over.  This is why I carry a large walking stick when I'm out with him.  Most dogs understand the universal "fuck off" message of brandishing and diaphragm-based shouting.

This reminds me of a quandary I was presented with:  you're on a collapsing bridge and have a moment to save either a) your beloved pet or b) a person who is a total stranger.  You do not have enough time to save both.  I have to admit it's a tough call.  It all depends on the day, and whether the person has douche face or not.

[Choop]

fuck that, it's my pet all the way. stranger can save himself or not.

[side_show]

When this question was posed, the dog was sitting in my lap, and gave me a hell of a side long glance.  Hubby chose dog immediately too.  I'm not so sure.  Probably pet.  It would all depend on which pet really, I love the hell out of my cats, but one of them is so near death due to old age... the other two are only six months behind him.  There are a lot of variables to consider.

[pmcd9]

Dog first. No question about it.

[KeithHernandez]

Maybe it is just because I work around (a lot of sick.. and healthy) animals and haven't had one as an adult, but you people are fucked up.


Also, I might finally be getting a cat!

[Choop]

working around animals is not the same thing as owning a pet.

[KeithHernandez]

I mean, I always had pets when I lived at my parents.  It still isn't the same though I'm sure.  Also, regardless I have seen mad animal death and gotten used to it.  I have euthanized an animal before (worked at vet, dog dying, owners spent massively keeping him alive.)  today I was in the room as a vet euthanized a cat I had just met (1 year old, size of four month old cat, had a uri for 11 months, hadn't ever seen the vet, these people brought him to the shelter, I rushed him to the vet where she said nothing could be done, was literally twitching with every breath, I thought it died in my car, had temp of 98.6-101.5 normal for cats.)  I have stabbed a needle into a cat's spleen who i really liked who died suddenly and unexpectedly (his previous owners brought him into the shelter at nearly l30 lbs so not completely unexpected) to check for some disease they thought he might have.  We get a deal on cremation from the big municipal shelter, but they make me put them in the room with the incinerator so I have seen (and smelled!) a half burnt deer. 

So yeah?, it's different for me.

[KeithHernandez]

Oh also, when I was growing up my family had cattle.  One was born with some defect so my mom and I were bottle feeding him for at least a few weeks before my dad had to shoot him in the head. 

A few years later a pregnant cat (we would get at least one thrown on our property every year, my mom always took them in) had kittens and then was drowned by my neighbors.  My mom and I bottle feed the kittens until they were healthy.  They got were drowned by my neighbor about a month apart (she probably shouldn't have let them go outside, now she doesn't.)

I think this stuff has something to do with my veganism too, especially the cow one.  It happened at such a young age and always stuck with me.  I first tried to go vegetarian at like 12 or 13, before I knew anything except I don't want to kill animals for my food.  I don't know, I'm rambling, but still, you have to save the person, no question about it.  Sorry if that is bad.

[wombat]

I both work with animals and have my own pets and I imagine I would save my dog. As far as I can make sense of this thought experiment, anyway.  I can't really visualize a situation where I had an equal chance of saving my pet and a strange human from a collapsing bridge. Like for one thing my dog can be picked up, so I can just grab her and carry her off, which I can't do to a human.

But I think the main thing is that if we're talking about an emergency where you had to make an instantaneous decision, I would instinctively save the dog. It would basically be a reflex because I've spent years keeping the dog safe - making sure she doesn't run into traffic etc. I would lunge for the dog without thinking about it.

Keith, speaking from my experience, I think you will find that there's a big difference between euthanizing a cat you never met before, or even losing an animal you like at the shelter, and facing a life and death situation with an animal you have lived with for years. It makes it maybe a tiny bit easier but don't expect it's going to be the same.

[side_show]

The interesting thing is that Keith is sort of pointing to a logic of "I've done work where animals die therefore I'm okay with them dying in this hypothetical situation." While I've done so much work related to people dying, and I think this sort of makes me less okay with a stranger dying in this hypothetical situation.  Still though, my dog really is my bestfriend.  I think about how much he trusts me and depends on me to keep him safe, I think of that look in his brown eyes... What a tough call.

[wombat]

I think about how much he trusts me and depends on me to keep him safe,

This is the thing - you have a prior obligation, to a creature that is much less able to take care of itself. I think that in a situation where you don't have time to think, that's going to end up taking priority even if you might regret it later.

[jay-ell]

This is going to make me even less popular than what I just posted in the Shit My ___ Says thread, but I would save the human, no question.

If you believe in heaven, you've gotta believe that either an animal doesn't have a soul to be saved or that it's going to heaven regardless. Either way, the stakes for the great beyond are lower -- nothing to lose. With a human, the odds of any given person getting past the pearly gates is significantly lower, so you'd best give a dude as much time as possible before cashing it in so he can get his poop in a group.

Of course, I am not a pet owner, so that makes a difference. And I think my answer here is indicative of exactly *why* I am not a pet owner. Not that I don't like animals, just that I am not willing to make that kind of commitment to protecting something that I'm not reasonably certain will outlive me.

[wombat]

Of course, I am not a pet owner, so that makes a difference.

It makes such a difference that there is really no point for a non-pet-owner to answer the question, because you're not answering the same question at all. You are making the choice between a theoretical animal and a theoretical human, which is totally different from the choice between a dog I've lived with for thirteen years and a theoretical human. I think all of us, because we are not a bunch of nutcases, would choose a theoretical, unknown human over a theoretical, unknown animal. So that's just not a remotely interesting question, you know?

[wombat]

Ash, you think you're in trouble - what I'm worried about is that I'm going to get to the Pearly Gates and it's going to turn out that the crickets and mealworms and mice are in charge. As a former reptile keeper, I will be so fuck*ng screwed.