The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board
Achewood => Achewood => Topic started by: wombat on March 21, 2011, 12:09:12 am
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http://s.assetbar.com/one_asset?b=S~cfd4f5a32442ff25864a8357965235a41&a=S~846 (http://s.assetbar.com/one_asset?b=S~cfd4f5a32442ff25864a8357965235a41&a=S~846)
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In other words, the same set of shakey excuses I let myself get away with but I don't wanna let others get away with.
Except, of course, that I've done nothing palpable to begin with, unlike many of those I would accuse.
On the one hand, I should have more access to such shakey excuses because I haven't done a blessed thing with my life.
On the other hand, I shouldn't be able to say anything about anyone ever because I haven't done a blessed thing with my life.
Christ, this has depressed me.
For the Achewood guy AND for myself.
Oh, and Syracuse is shitting the bed against an 11 seed. Isn't helping.
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Fair enough. Onstad's entitled to a break and if Achewood's done, it's done.
Nice he finally took the time to share with us. Seemed a little self-congratulatory too.
I hope he keeps creating, in whatever format he chooses.
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It did kinda read like the little speech a politician gives at the end of the night when he knows he's probably gonna lose but the counting won't be over until tomorrow afternoon so, like, you don't completely concede but you give yourself the pat on the back you would in a concession speech anyway because not as many cameras are gonna show up tomorrow afternoon when you actually-actually give up.
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It sounds that way because he's trying to give a reasonable explanation that he knows will fail with the many people who think he owes them free entertainment. He knows he can't win.
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That was the best "fuck you to my fans" I have ever read.
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Also, whatever I put up on Achewood.com is free to the world, and I won’t entertain a bunch of entitled whining.
Heh.
I really liked Gaiman's piece. As soon as I'm done with what I'm currently reading I think I'm going to read American Gods again. fuck*ng love that book.
The first paragraph reminds me of this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk&feature=player_detailpage#t=120s) of Louis CK talking about technology and entitlement.
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Upon a second read, it seems like he's using the safety of noodling in chapbooks without any pressure (and the excuse that he's got to put something up there because people are paying) to defend himself from putting out perhaps weak or half-developed Achewood strips that would... probably have actually have snowballed into real strips again. I know this is a broken record but the pay wall issue seems like a big part of this.
I would theorize, from the "dreadfully sorry but respectfully I don't owe you shit you greedy assholes and how dare you wound a sensitive artist with your acclaim and your money and the support that got him to the fringe of mainstream exposure like this, you are all fuck*ng monsters for putting that kind of pressure of a delicate flower, what you have done is like killing a mockingbird" letter, that the pay wall has allowed a perfectionist streak in the dude to mutate into something almost completely crippling.
It gave him a way to make the free stuff perfectionistically sacrosanct and a practical reason to have a place to put the stillborn failures.
A perfect set of excuses to create the small embarassments inevitable in a serial entertainment exercise culminating in never putting anything out because nothing's ever perfect.
Christ, I'm jealous of having a path of excuses like that.
I have to admit that I use my over-education to find flaws in my own stuff and then fold so as to insulate myself from painful criticism, like all the other amateurs have to admit.
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Eh, I don't want to come off smarmy but at this point I like the internet message board more than the comic. That said, he's taken a lot of shit off this gig. I remember making a comment during the first week I was on Dumbrella something to the effect of "I can't imagine what it's like to create art and be so immersed in your audience". It's got to suck, for most values of "artistic type" that I've come across. In the end, I've gotten much more out of Chris than the couple hundred bucks I've put into this deal.
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Like a sparrow birthing a clenched human fist
Correct title.
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Or he could have said "I think I'm done with Achewood now. Thanks for supporting me and for being part of what it became," and then just let it be. Get a job like the one he left when this took off, support his family, find some artistic expression somewhere. Maybe turn the merchandise business over to one of them companies that does that sort of thing so he wouldn't have to spend his afternoons shipping stuff out of his garage and could maybe make money from that.
Instead, he basically said "I don't feel like doing this any more, and it's your fault for making me not have fun, but since some of you will pay me for doing something I don't feel is good enough to release for free, you can continue to do that."
Granted, since my work is also subject to direct instant feedback from the Internet, I know where he's coming from in terms of the entitlement that fans seem to have, and the enthusiastic viciousness the medium engenders. It really does hurt, and it hurts my enjoyment of my job. There's nothing more annoying than the entitlement complex of people on the internet who have no idea of what goes into your decisions, and there's nothing more frustrating than knowing that you'll be called an idiot no matter what you decide anyway. This isn't, however, a reason to stop producing. It's an excuse.
If you're going to break up with someone, break up and accept the fact that you can't still be fuck buddies.
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"I don't feel like doing this any more, and it's your fault for making me not have fun, but since some of you will pay me for doing something I don't feel is good enough to release for free, you can continue to do that."
That is some quality summarizing.
Have an imaginary can of soda.
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In a way, I feel for the dude. He is under so much pressure to perform that when the time comes, he just can't.
But on the other hand...I know from experience that the way to overcome writer's block is to write. If he's done with these characters, he's done, and I'm cool with that. I just wish he'd go ahead and move on to something else (or not) so we can follow whatever his next step is (or not).
It's a shame to see such a talented dude fall victim to performance anxiety. Especially when it can be prevented with a simple vaccine.
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Most of you didn't read Gaiman's piece, I take it.
Onstad was always obviously tempermentally unsuited to the comic strip business. He couldn't churn them out every day; he could have kept to an arbitratary schedule by deciding that this was a one a week comic and holding stuff back in queue for weeks when he got into a productive period but I can understand the complete lack of appeal of that approach. So he did it like most writers do: he wrote something till it was finished, then published it. And he kept it up for:
nine years, 1,700 strips, 1,000 character blog entries spanning twelve characters, thirty books, 700 subscriber pieces, (http://nine years, 1,700 strips, 1,000 character blog entries spanning twelve characters, thirty books, 700 subscriber pieces,)
That's a pretty damn good record for someone who was arguably in the wrong line of work - that is, the wrong line of work except of course for the tiny little detail of the fact that the work iteself was BRILLIANT.
And he's not saying he's finished because he's not finished. It's his stuff and he reserves the right to do it again if the inspiration returns. If he said "goodbye and thanks," and then he started doing strips again, he'd have to listen to you all making snide remarks about how many comeback tours he's going to do. He can't win.
Seriously, people, if this is what having fans is like, I guess I better hope that no one buys my books.
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Poor tortured soul. How very horrible for him.
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I honestly don't get an undercurrent of Fuck You from what he wrote. There is one reference to "entitled whining" which I think is completely justified, because I've read much of that entitled whining.
I feel like you are all reading a totally different thing than I read. He doesn't want to repeat himself. The internet kind of bums him out. He wants to work on more long-form stuff. It's not mostly about YOU.
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Nice sig Ash.
I've written and deleted several of my own posts in the last strip's thread about why I've left writing. I was hanging out with a fellow writer on Friday and talking about this. It's incredibly hard to articulate how fucked up things get in your own head when so many strangers are talking about your work. When your audience has understood and misunderstood. When the media has interpreted and misinterpreted. For me, and perhaps for Onstad, it has been totally irresistible to read about the things people have said about my work. My ego and my insecurity made it impossible not to read the reviews, the messageboard posts, the emails. And the weight of a random internet asshole, a gushing fan, a good critic, a bad one... they all feel sort of equal in my head and heart. I had the work of actors, a director, designers and production people to hid behind - surely it was good because of what she did, it was bad because of how he did it. I had people to hide behind and also to diffuse any sense of being puffed up because theatre is a collaborative process. It still messed with my head though. Deeply. I can't imagine how much more messed up it would be to be the one and only one to praise and blame.
The thing is, there are people I would like to thank and people I would like to say "fuck you" to. Some people I'd need to say both to. Onstad sounds like he wants to hug and punch his readers all within the same message.
I get being this bound up. I get the toxic navel gazing. Writing is such an internal, solitary process that it lends to this sort of sickness far too well.
I also understand why he can't just declare it done. Even though I've stopped writing, I can't escape my identity. I am a writer. I have no doubt that one day I'll come back to the work. The things is, the person who wrote that play that brought me all that attention, and that near decade of work - she's not me. Even now as I prepare for the scripts publication, the desire to rewrite the whole damn thing because my perspective is so different now is there. But then the proper intent and the integrity of the work would be destroyed. I was a angry kid coming to terms with loss when I set out to write that thing. I'm a happy adult who is on the other side of dealing with that shit now. That doesn't make the anger and loss any more legitimate. I just don't draw from that place anymore.
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Most of you didn't read Gaiman's piece, I take it.
I hadn't before, but I just did. And, yeah, Onstad is not our bitch. I don't expect a damn thing from him. I wish him well and it's good to know he's not lying in a gutter somewhere, but I get the sense that he is really unhappy to not be writing and drawing much any more, and that makes me sad. I want him to get back on the hoss for his own sake, not because I think he owes me free entertainment.
But I think LFM and others are annoyed because he is insisting he is not writing for us while simultaneously asking for money, not for what he has already produced (most of us long-term fans have already bought that in some form), but in exchange for the vague hope that he might produce something again, someday.
If Gaiman doesn't finish a book everyone's expecting, he doesn't get paid. If I don't write any new articles, I don't get paid. (Sometimes I don't get paid even when I *do* the work I'm supposed to.) Onstad seems to think that the mere fact of his being an artist means that people should hit the tip jar regardless of whether or not he produces new content, which is a very different type of entitlement that tends to rub consumers the wrong way.
I'm not saying I get this from this particular letter, per se; but I can see how his previous actions (setting stuff up behind the paywall and only producing content there, posting prominent notes on the main page about the tip jar even while dismantling the store, pushing the paid content even in his "maybe-farewell" note) might lead some to believe that that's what this is about.
I tend to have more faith in him then that, but then, I tend to take people at face value, and I'm told that's a rare quality these days.
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But also: When Gaiman finishes his book, every time someone new buys it, he gets money.
In contrast, Achewood is up on the web, so new readers get it for free. I don't think it's inappropriate for him to point out to them that there's a tip jar. I don't think it's inappropriate for him to mention that if you pay 2.99 for one month at assetbar, you can read pages and pages of material that you haven't read before. And then cancel.
There is nothing wrong with an artist asking for money for his work. Even work that is already finished.
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Onstad was always obviously tempermentally unsuited to the comic strip business . . . that is, the wrong line of work except of course for the tiny little detail of the fact that the work itself was BRILLIANT.
There is nothing wrong with an artist asking for money for his work. Even work that is already finished.
These things here.
I am a bit surprised at the venom. So he's a talented, kind of dickish guy - he's got that in common with how many people? We've all known it for quite some time, as well. I wonder if it's just the immediate contact that is causing a problem.
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Look, here's the thing. Or here's what I think is the thing. I'm in a really weird place intellectually and emotionally right now, I'm probably less stable than usual.
The cult of the idea that a writer or a craftsperson or an artist becomes successful on the sole merit of the sweat of their brow is utter bullshit. This is like the only thing I've learned in the four or five total years of my life I've spent working on sets and in production offices and editing rooms as an assistant/utility-infielder. And I say this as someone who still clings to the idea that I'm going to figure out how to sustain myself through creative effort.
No matter how much work and frustration, no matter how good or how bad your stuff is, depending on your medium, a lot of people decided to invest themselves into the idea of elevating your work along the way. Editors, executives, critics, the people who paid their money at the festival screening, the people who built the fan sites that made some paper or teevee channel think you were worth covering, your mom's college friend who knew an agent. Producers who put their asses on the line to talk to you instead of making easier money making Transformers 4. All kinds of people in the business and the fan-sphere putting their time and money into you, just because they believe in your stuff that much.
On the internet, with something like Achewood? All the early adopter fans who became true believers of your work and got that fuck*ng word of mouth out. These things don't just happen. Hell, you guys and girls who are the real oldbies around here, you were fuck*ng right there at that early kernel doing that work. Without people like you pushing everyone to look at this brilliant thing, there is no success.
You may be able to argue that Achewood as an idea exists on an island first and foremost in the creator's head but the success of the strip does not.
You don't own your work totally, just because you created it, if you put it out there to be consumed. If you sit on it like fuck*ng shiftless cowards terrified of being told they're not God special little snowflakes... like I do... that's one thing. You can own your own little Schrodinger's ideas that both are and are not when you're a gutless pig like myself.
But when you release your work, you do... you do release it into the world and while the initial effort is all yours, the effort toward whether it is seen or unseen, ignored or hailed as a masterpiece and whether you are successful enough to get the honour of releasing other work to significant other eyes is in the hands of middlemen and paying customers and in the case of an Achewood, tens of thousands of unpaid preachers to the cause.
Ownership in the initial work is yours and an artifact of your hard work. Success... if it is a success, if you are a success... of a work of craft or art ESPECIALLY in this day and age, success is an artifact of not just the creator but also that of dozens of middlemen who could make their money on something easier and thousands of unpaid enthusiasts going out and preaching your book and buying your shit.
It is not as simple as having your ball and going home with it. If you never took that ball out to play a game, sure, it's your fuck*ng ball and mazeltov if you wanna be a selgiraffe fuck about your fuck*ng precious-ass ball. If you've been playing a game in the field with it, with seventeen other players and there's been people selling tickets and buying tickets and running around convincing other people to pay for tickets too...
It is not entirely your ball anymore. And that's weird and counterintuitive and terrifying and fucked-up but it is true. Probably always true and probably never truer than now.
Let me, let me think a bit more about this, I'll be back.
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I don't have any well-thought out ideas about this, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.
I wish he would have just said, "no more Achewood. It's done. Thanks for buying my books. Check back here for news of my future endeavors."
also, send people the shirts they have paid for.
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Most of you didn't read Gaiman's piece, I take it.
I read it. Not only does he come off like an asshole, but he's wrong. In the example he is commenting on I think there is a responsibility of the author to complete his work. The mere fact that an author is writing a series demands that he complete his work. Beyond that, the author in question, RR Martin, teased his audience with the promise of a new chapter in the series. He then turned his attention elsewhere. Understandably his fans are frustrated.
In the case of Onstad, his fans are frustrated for a similar reason. Onstad's fans expect a comic on a daily basis because Onstad is writing a daily comic strip. These are not expectations that we as his fans have created.
When, over the course of the past two years or so, when his production began to slow, missing a strip or two a week at first, until ultimately grinding to a complete halt. He gave us not one word of explanation until now. All of this time he has ostensibly been on the job, so is it unfair that we began to speculate? Is it unfair of us to be frustrated that he's not delivering the product he's promised in a timely fashion?
And to hide behind the claim that we have no rights to complain because everything hes produced has been given for free. Well that's just a shameful lie. It insinuates that he hasn't made any money out of this enterprise and we all know that's not the case. The truth of the matter is his free comic has provided him and his family with a comfortable living over these years. Even now, in the absence of new material, It's still providing.
Does he owe us a comic? No, of course not. I've never felt that he did. I did expect one because it's natural to expect a daily comic strip to be updated daily. I'm glad he's finally taken the time to explain himself even though at this point it's unnecessary. I had already given up on expecting the strip to ever update. I wish him well and hope he returns to Achewood someday. If not, C'est la vie.
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I don't have any well-thought out ideas about this, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.
I wish he would have just said, "no more Achewood. It's done. Thanks for buying my books. Check back here for news of my future endeavors."
also, send people the shirts they have paid for.
What Inev said.
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I dunno.
I've spent the last coupla years watching some of my creative heroes go sort of crazy putting themselves on islands of accomplishment, disregarding the roles that fandom/critics/the press had in creating their careers now that they feel they've earned their places and fandom/critics/the press aren't being totally lock-step supportive despite a sense of entitlement toward lock-step support. And it fuck*ng woogs me out. Makes me doubt my own intentions creatively.
The Red Letter Media reviews of the Star Wars prequels hit the nail on the head of a lot of what I'm thinking here, I suppose. It's just...
The only reason anyone learned to care about Achewood over a sustained period of time was because a dedicated fandom donated a lot of Paypal, bought a lot of books and shirts, bugged the shit out of their friends to archive-binge the website and so on.
There are little blips of genius all over the creative landscape that never last long enough to start feeling bad and conflicted about success and little amounts of fame because they never found an active fanbase. There's all kinds of awful pandering wasteful bullshit that are successful as all hell because they found their particular niche of an active fanbase.
To say "I'm uncomfortable with this very limited amount of fame that allowed me to make a living selling t-shirts about drawings, I'm going to stop making those drawings because I no longer think they're perfect but by all means, keep paying three bucks a month for my bar napkin doodles until I stop feeling the awful pressure you ungrateful entitled assholes are putting on me and start being perfect again, three bucks a month, buy it now" ummmmm...
It seems like a "fuck you". Not a big bold screaming "fuck you" but a little passive-aggressive "fuck you" and a "fuck you" nonetheless.
Entitlement is a two-way street, here. Gratitude is a two-way street, here.
He doesn't owe people to keep doing something he thinks he just can't do anymore but considering these peoples' enthusiasm and financial support allowed him to make his hobby into his full time job, yeah, he owed those people the graciousness of a more honest answer a lot more promptly.
He owes them more than "yeah, I'm not doing anything now and might not be doing anything for a long time but you're all a bunch of pushy entitled assholes and keep paying three dollars a month for scans of cocktail napkins in case I can ever get past the terrible pressure you pushy entitled assholes have placed on me by allowing me to turn my hobby into my profession and you won't want to miss anything will you then, you pushy entitled assholes?"
Yeah.
Entitlement and gratitude do go both ways.
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I'm going to stop making those drawings because I no longer think they're perfect but by all means, keep paying three bucks a month for my bar napkin doodles
I'm canning this because It made me laugh, but also because I almost made the same point.
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also, send people the shirts they have paid for.
Can't argue against this. Not doing so, well, you know what kind of move that is.
The rest of it is interesting as an intellectual exercise, but I'm pretty sure the only artist whose work I enjoy - really, really enjoy - who isn't sort of a cock is Stevie Wonder. And he's gone somewhat downhill over the last twenty years or so. Still, it comes off kind of shitty for me to say stuff like "why can't you people enjoy what we did get?" so I'll just say tear that fucker a new ass!
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In contrast, Achewood is up on the web, so new readers get it for free. I don't think it's inappropriate for him to point out to them that there's a tip jar. I don't think it's inappropriate for him to mention that if you pay 2.99 for one month at assetbar, you can read pages and pages of material that you haven't read before. And then cancel.
I feel like this is what he's trying to do. So I agree with you.
But I can also see how others here disagree with us, because while I think Onstad is *trying* to put his stuff out there and give new readers an opportunity to pay for it if they want, he's not doing a very good job of explaining that.
The open letter he posted seems to raise as many questions as it answers, and that kind of open-endedness can be frustrating.
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I have nothing else to add to this discussion except to repeat that now I am really worried that someday I might have fans.
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I have nothing else to add to this discussion except to repeat that now I am really worried that someday I might have fans.
But this sort of thing wouldn't happen to you because you'd be kind and considerate to your fans.
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Whereas I am really worried that if I am ever successful, I'm going to become one of those crazy people who really needs someone to sit in the back of my chariot and remind me that I am not a god as I return to Rome from a winning military campaign.
Except now they don't have those anymore. They have, like, personal assistants and publicists and stuff who do the opposite thing.
"You are a god, this is all you, this was all you, you are amazing, you did it all and you can do no wrong and if you think you're doing it wrong you shouldn't do it at all and you don't owe anyone anything because you are an island of magic and grace unto yourself, the only thing you owe anyone is the salaries of your hangers-on such as myself."
I'm not afraid of being inundated with reality by success but I desperately fear being isolated from reality by success.
To be so through the looking glass that I would post an angry letter to the internet explaining how awful it is to be able to make a living creatively and that everyone who helped me get there should fuck off with their expectations because it was all me me me me.
That's what scares the shit out of me.
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You know, LFM, most people who are "successful" as writers are nowhere near THAT successful. So, I don't want to be mean here, but seriously, if that's one of your rationalizations for not finishing stuff, it's not a very good one.
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I have nothing else to add to this discussion except to repeat that now I am really worried that someday I might have fans.
I don't have anything else to add to this discussion either except to point out that you already have fans so watch out!
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With Paul on this one.
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That is SCARY.
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My major rationalization for not finishing/submitting things is fear of being told they are bad and therefore I am bad, don't you worry.
The fear of the slanted vision of that comes with success is there but it is quite low on the list, an artifact of trying to make it in Los Angeles TV/Film for a few years.
If I suck at writing, I have almost no positive identity to fall back on, you know?
Without being good at writing, I fear that I am nothing more than a loose affiliation of affectations, childhood nostalgias, places I went to and failed, family associations and friendships toward which I am violently ambivalent, ideologies I learned from my father's old pulp science fiction novels, quotes from television shows, unhealed youthful traumas, arbitrary preferences, overblown grudges and embarassing bursts of naive enthusiasm held together by a flimsy network of hair, fat and delusions.
So I hold onto this tiny thing that I think is my own, firmly but gently in my closed hand for myself along.
Scared of crushing it in my fist but ten times more terrified that if someone looks in there, they'll tell me there's nothing there for protecting at all.
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But this sort of thing wouldn't happen to you because you'd be kind and considerate to your fans.
I was always kind to my audiences. That doesn't mean things weren't extremely fucked up when it came to the great divide between creation and interpretation.
I had a grad student in tears at one point because she had based her thesis on a interpretation of my play that she clearly came to understand as false. It's not my fault that she had this thesis, and it's not my fault that my play didn't turn out to mean the things she wanted it to mean. It's not my fault that she flew from her country of origin to Canada to find this out, or that she spent months researching and consulting with her adviser only to have to figure out a way to overhaul everything at the 11th hour. I still felt bad because she had devoted so much energy and thought to a theory that was wrong. She said she had came to Canada to study my play because it was her favourite, but she said it in such a dejected way, because clearly the play she thought was her favorite turned out to not be about what she thought it was about.
I still feel torn about this. I sincerely believe people should be free to interpret all art however it resonates with them, but if you sit down with me, I will tell you my version of the truth.
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I was always kind to my audiences. That doesn't mean things weren't extremely fucked up when it came to the great divide between creation and interpretation.
I had a grad student in tears at one point because she had based her thesis on a interpretation of my play that she clearly came to understand as false. It's not my fault that she had this thesis, and it's not my fault that my play didn't turn out to mean the things she wanted it to mean. It's not my fault that she flew from her country of origin to Canada to find this out, or that she spent months researching and consulting with her adviser only to have to figure out a way to overhaul everything at the 11th hour. I still felt bad because she had devoted so much energy and thought to a theory that was wrong. She said she had came to Canada to study my play because it was her favourite, but she said it in such a dejected way, because clearly the play she thought was her favorite turned out to not be about what she thought it was about.
I still feel torn about this. I sincerely believe people should be free to interpret all art however it resonates with them, but if you sit down with me, I will tell you my version of the truth.
In college we just did this with dead people, so we were always right.
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I still feel torn about this. I sincerely believe people should be free to interpret all art however it resonates with them, but if you sit down with me, I will tell you my version of the truth.
I've noticed Jenny Owen Youngs goes the opposite way on this. She's said she doesn't like to print the lyrics to her songs because she doesn't want to ruin them for somebody who's been mishearing a word or two all this time.
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I still feel torn about this. I sincerely believe people should be free to interpret all art however it resonates with them, but if you sit down with me, I will tell you my version of the truth.
I hate it so much when I get that 'I want to leave the interpretation up to the viewer' nonsense from an artist. I'm a firm believer that the viewer can project whatever they want (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_with_a_Pearl_Earring) onto a piece of art, but if I ask directly and you don't have an answer i am going to assume you just didn't put a whole lot of thought into it.
I'll never forget the day I spent a couple of hours "interpreting" this work (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcd9/301156542/) while I watched her paint. She was kind enough to tell me that I was full of shit.
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Onstad is a piece-a SHIT.
I would drop kick him off a god damn cliff in fuck*ng Newport.
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I would drop kick him off a god damn cliff in fuck*ng Newport.
You would probably kick Jesus.
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I have nothing to add but: A sparrow birthing a clenched human fist.
Focus, people!
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ITT: LFM admits it is the fear of crippling fame that prevents him from publishing. Also, I am not a professional baseball player because I don't want to be responsible for shattering the records of my heros. It wouldn't feel right.
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You would probably kick Jesus.
You haven't heard my ideas!
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Onstad throws in the towel and the joint turns into fuckwords and flick knives!
Time to stab up the place!
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No no no, it is my crippling fear of being judged as untalented and therefore ruining my sense of identity that holds me back, Moneyspider.
I... just wrote that three or four posts ago.
Whatever else you wanna say about me, I have more than adequately stared into my own goddamned navel and am willing to report back upon its contents honestly.
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I want to restate my frustration here. I am not frustrated by the fact that Onstad quit making Achewood. It is his right and in that sense he owes us nothing. He's made quite a lot of content that I have enjoyed, and the vast majority of it has been enjoyed at no cost to me. If he wants to stop that, it's fine, it's his right. Watterson did the same thing, and while I would dearly love for there to be more Calvin and Hobbes, I still thank him for not making soulless joke-a-day cash-in Calvin and Hobbes, produced by Calhobs, inc. Achewood wouldn't be good if you didn't have the sense that Chris himself was just as surprised at the day's strip as you were.
I am frustrated that he quit in 2009 and didn't have the guts to tell us so we could go off and do other things. I'm frustrated he actively asked for donations while knowing he did not want to produce any new art. I'm frustrated because he produces what he acknowledges is substandard product and continues to charge for it.
And yeah, when he blames us for caring enough to express opinions, that frustrates me too. I was worried for him. I thought he was seriously depressed and needed help. No, turns out he's not depressed, really, but it's somehow my fault that he doesn't enjoy his job any more.
Again, I want to reiterate that I know how this feels. What I do is seen and interacted with by tens of thousands of people every day. A lot of them can't understand the difference between a rock and Edwin Moses, but feel justified in calling me an idiot, directly, on a web forum that my company pays for. It is disheartening to read that, because I know that if we talked we'd be able to at least come to an understanding. I'm really good at that, one on one. I can't do it on the web, because every thing I write is picked apart, scanned for clues, played backwards and at half speed, and generally dissected to produce further ways to disagree with me. If I ever leave this job, the yammering masses of entitled shitheads will be the reason why I do it.
But I'm not going to tell them that, because I think it's classless to do so. And that's what frustrates me about Chris' announcement most of all.
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A can for Mister Lister.
And who knows? That announcement sort of suggested that the guy has a morbid curiosity with critical response, especially that which he assumes will be negative.
Maybe his eyes wandered here in search of the Democratic Response and your valid concerns won't fall on deaf ears (metaphorically) after all.
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Lister, I totally get where you are coming from and why this would piss you off more than anyone, but I have to disagree with one thing, "while knowing he did not want to produce any more art." I think it's clear from what he wrote that he's been trying, and it's just not working anymore, and he's not happy about that. That must feel rotten, and we're just being mean about it, you know?
Well, like I said, it was always clear he was unsuited to this work. It was also always clear that A, he really wanted to be a prose writer, and B, he had a really hard time dealing with his public. This was always a complicated relationship that was going to come to a bad end and it's amazing it lasted so long.
Sigh. Let's just treasure the memories of the good times, ok?
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Another can for Lister. You've expressed my feelings perfectly.
That must feel rotten, and we're just being mean about it, you know?
But we aren't.
I haven't seen anybody seriously say that Onstad sucks because he can't/won't make Achewood anymore. I think we've all been pretty understanding about the artistic side of it. Lister articulated very well why we're irritated about how he's handled the transition. Surely Onstad is sophisticated enough to understand that distinction.
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Since nobody else has posted it, Comics Alliance interview: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/03/21/chris-onstad-achewood-hiatus-interview/
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Oh no. Not screenwriting.
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Hi all:
I posted here like four times I think maybe three years ago. I've been lurking every now and again to check in, and I came back this time to get ya'll's thoughts on Onstad's goodbye letter, since I was feeling conflicted about it. Obviously you guys are kinda conflicted, too. Very mixed reactions. But reading your thoughts helped me clarify mine. I think it's actually very, very simple:
When you (essentially) end a successful web comic after 9 years, it would be nice, in your goodbye letter, to thank your fans. Once. Like, "Thanks for all of your support over the years, and for allowing me to be a full-time cartoonist, which is something so many people want to do but never can."
I mean, if you insert that line into the letter, we all feel like 200% better, right? Instead, he calls us entitled whiners and says how annoying it is that we made him a "semi-public" figure. And I'm not even saying he should take that stuff out! I get that stuff. But seriously, not a single thank you to the fans? That's pretty mind-blowing.
I'm not saying anything some of you haven't already said, but I think it does get lost in all the discussion of what fans are or are not entitled to or how fame affects artists (i.e., it gets lost in that essay by Gaiman). I don't think any of that stuff would bother us so much if we felt like Onstad could spare one single sentence of gratitude for the support we've given him and his work. Agree?
-The Biz Markizzle
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Considering the origin of this board, I wonder why any of us is surprised that Onstad was less than considerate of his fans.
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I am frustrated that he quit in 2009 and didn't have the guts to tell us so we could go off and do other things.
What?
I'm frustrated because he produces what he acknowledges is substandard product and continues to charge for it.
This is absolutely right.
Considering the origin of this board, I wonder why any of us is surprised that Onstad was less than considerate of his fans.
This is what I was getting at, when I said that considering the Dumbrella debacle this should surprise no one.
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Fuck that guy!
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Biz has a point, totally. But it's also kind of weird that we expect anything from the guy other than his work, don't you think? Maybe this is just because I am old and I remember what it was like before the internet. Like, I have never gone out of my way to meet writers whose work I admire. If they are jerks, I don't want to know it. Why spoil the work because you get cross at the person? If you just buy a person's books and read them, and have no other contact, you don't get annoyed because they don't thank you. It doesn't matter that they have less than stellar social skills. Social skills are not what you are buying from them.
But now, you can't just stay in your room and write stuff, despite the fact that I don't think I am the only one who started writing as an attempt to make money without the need for social skills. You are supposed to publicize your own stuff, have a blog, interact with readers on the internet - and if you are successful enough, even go out and travel around and meet them. And if you are posting comics on the web this is all a hundred times more expected.
Really, the expectations are kind of out of line with the sort of person who tends to do this kind of work. (And I am not saying this only because I was just invited to an author's event that takes place at 7:30 in the freaking morning. Isn't the whole point of being a writer, not having to get up and be somewhere, talking with people, at 7:30 in the freaking morning???)
Basically, he's an anti-social geek like the rest of us, so, maybe cut him some slack?
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Basically, he's an anti-social geek like the rest of us, so, maybe cut him some slack?
No.
The rest of us anti-social geeks manage to be decent to each other. You, as a self-proclaimed anti-social geek, manage to be decent to other people. Why should Onstad get a pass? How much of an artistic genius do you have to be before being a jerk is OK?
Acting like a dick is acting like a dick. The work is wonderful, but Onstad acts like a dick to his fans. That sort of thing is dickish when professional athletes, actors or rock stars do it and it's dickish when Onstad does it.
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terabytes of vitriolic hate mail (incoming)
I know it’s irritating that I can keep no regular schedule; that’s what RSS is for. Also, whatever I put up on Achewood.com is free to the world, and I won’t entertain a bunch of entitled whining.
There's a reader backlash to a comma in what they feel is a place that is "out of voice." There's a reader backlash against a dresser being the wrong shade of grey. There's a reader backlash against the strip taking half a second too long to load. I can't worry about sh*t like that.
For me, what makes this feel really unpleasant is that in each of these instances, he expresses such distaste for his readers and doesn't differentiate between these haters/entitled whiners/backlashers and the rest of his audience who have been quietly reading, enjoying and appreciating his work over the long haul. That's what rubs me wrong. Meanwhile, he complains about the nature of on-line comics, but he's the one who slapped Asset Bar on the site. Clearly that didn't work out well for him.
Sure I'm disappointed when there's no Achewood, and sure I'm disappointed when there's no avocados at the grocery store. I've never complained to Chris and I've never complained to the grocer. I've shopped at the same grocer for a decade too and yes, I occasionally share a snarky comment with who I'm shopping with about how "they're out of avocados again." But I know both art and avocados are organic and beyond my controle. I keep coming back to the store, and keep hoping avocados will be in stock again. I kept checking back in with Achewood and hoping there would be more. How can I be blamed for wanting more? Is this entitled whining? Seems like that's the only reader he's taken note of.
I think he's lurked far too much on-line, reading things not intended for his eyes. Having lurked on a message board about my own work, I know how unhealthy it is to hear the things people say when they think they're not in your presence. For me eavesdropping like that was driven by insecurity and ego as I noted earlier. He has a history of being fascinated and repelled by his audiences' reaction. That's his damage and it's shitty that he puts it on his audience instead of owning it as his own folly.
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Since nobody else has posted it, Comics Alliance interview: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/03/21/chris-onstad-achewood-hiatus-interview/
" 'Honesty' may not mean much coming from a guy who just took a couple months off with no explanation, but hey, that was honestly all I had to offer."
thats what im taking away from this.
fin
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Considering the origin of this board, I wonder why any of us is surprised that Onstad was less than considerate of his fans.
Thanks for the reminder Aug. Dumbrealla was so long ago that I sort of forget about having intereacted with Onstad back in the day. My memory is foggy - I seem to recall thinking of him as playing a character on that board. Still, taking what I learned from all this it's hard not to be gobsmacked by how Onstad fails at the whole "don't be a dick to strangers" and "have some dignity" idioms at this point.
Entitled whiner? I think he's the one winning this award.
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But it's also kind of weird that we expect anything from the guy other than his work, don't you think? Maybe this is just because I am old and I remember what it was like before the internet. Like, I have never gone out of my way to meet writers whose work I admire. If they are jerks, I don't want to know it. Why spoil the work because you get cross at the person? If you just buy a person's books and read them, and have no other contact, you don't get annoyed because they don't thank you. It doesn't matter that they have less than stellar social skills. Social skills are not what you are buying from them.
Artist have always interacted with their audience, this is not a newfangled internet idea. It's almost certainly more prevalent in the internet era, but it's not new. Of course you know this, I'm just saying. Sometimes they are dickish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpd24yVy5C4). Other times they are gracious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SKyfGK9brs).
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And he made active choices to do so - Dumbrella was his baby, and even after recognizing it as problematic to his process, he then went on to create Assbar. He's actively sought out interaction in the very way he apparently disdains.
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Lest we forget, he also posted for time on this board.
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And he made active choices to do so - Dumbrella was his baby, and even after recognizing it as problematic to his process, he then went on to create Assbar. He's actively sought out interaction in the very way he apparently disdains.
Yeah, but like I said - you kind of have to do this now, whether you like it or not. Especially if your work is primarily on the web.
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Yeah, but like I said - you kind of have to do this now, whether you like it or not. Especially if your work is primarily on the web.
No, I don't think you do. This is particularly true if you already have an active fan run messageboard.
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Like, I have never gone out of my way to meet writers whose work I admire. If they are jerks, I don't want to know it. Why spoil the work because you get cross at the person?
I still kind of wish I'd never bought/read the Calvin & Hobbes 10th Anniversary book. There was neat info in there but it also made me like Waterson less and read some of the strips differently in a way I didn't like.
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No, I don't think you do. This is particularly true if you already have an active fan run messageboard.
Plus, he did uncover some creative ways to intereact with readers through commissioned work for the books, Ray's Place and the blogs where there was some safe distance via the separation of the world he created.
I want to be clear, when I discovered the messageboard activity about my work (via an ego-based self-Googling of my play's title) there was a clear moment of decision in regard to posting to it or not. There were questions I could have answered and misconceptions I could have cleared up. Also there were fuckwads I could have put in their place and kind people I could have thanked. I also understood that this was conversation not intended for my "ears." I know message boards, I know posters (including me here) enjoy our speculating and dissecting. Audiences have done that since the beginning of time in one form or another. IMHO the best art asks questions rather than giving answers. Who am I to waltz in and shut them up with my easy answers?
What this boils down to is setting and sticking to healthy boundaries.
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Huh.
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Hey, I know for desperately wanting to find ways to forgive an artist for being weirdly inconsiderate and out-of-touch about things late in the game because I love his or her early work and because I was on what I came in near to the ground floor of the fandom, wombles.
There is a deep feeling of wanting to forgive for the good times and the ways it felt like you were along for the ride of the good times, you almost don't wanna sully those memories by admitting where we are now. I have been there.
But Onstad's lack of consideration, lack of grace, lack of any kind of admission that anyone had anything to do with the positive parts of his success and accusation that the bad parts are everyone else's fault... man, it sucks. It is a shitty way to treat thousands of people who elevated his hobby into a full time job that would be a dream job to millions and The Dream Job to thousands, no matter how inconvinent he has found the other side of that sword.
Dude didn't have Hephaestus crack him on the noggin one day with a magic hammer and then Achewood was standing out there in the sea on the half-shell with a Dark hoss comics deal and Hollywood option rights and thousands of people paying forty dollars a year to look at his cocktail napkins. A lot of True Believers and boosters picked up his hobby-work, fell in love with it and took him there.
If he wants to stop doing Achewood for now or forever, if he HAS to stop doing Achewood now or forever, that's totally between him and his muse if he has one.
But to be so rude and accusatory and ungrateful and blind in the way he handles it, there's no set of artist's rights that forgives that kinda mistreatment.
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Are you trying to let off steam? Or is there something that can be done here (by any/all of us) that would provide you with closure? This is an open question from me to anyone who is having a problem with how Onstad wrapped things up, because I'm wondering where this thread is going and to what end.
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Are you trying to let off steam? Or is there something that can be done here (by any/all of us) that would provide you with closure? This is an open question from me to anyone who is having a problem with how Onstad wrapped things up, because I'm wondering where this thread is going and to what end.
Yes, we are letting off steam. What would you suggest, we talk about the comic?
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Yes, we are letting off steam. What would you suggest, we talk about the comic?
I am giving out so many cans lately, the tiny doctor must just be rolling around in imaginary money.
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Yes, we are letting off steam. What would you suggest, we talk about the comic?
It might just be time to turn to fan fic. We took over the message board he orphaned, why not the comic?
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That would be about the funniest thing in the world... in terms of concept but not in terms of execution.
A Taiwan-style government-in-exile Achewood generated by fans while the creator is busy charging three bucks a month on scans of his doodles on subscription cards while waiting in the dentist's office.
It would be a bad idea and probably disasterous but the concept is hilarious.
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I don't know about that. If Smells wrote it it might be pretty good.
And hey, we can just cut and paste the art and it probably wouldn't look any worse. Oh wait - we should do it like the dinosaur comic. Just pick one, and keep changing the dialogue over and over.
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Oh wait - we should do it like the dinosaur comic. Just pick one, and keep changing the dialogue over and over.
I nominate this strip (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01252005).
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Yes, we are letting off steam. What would you suggest, we talk about the comic?
I'm just surprised that this really bothers anyone that much. Am I the only one who remembers the brutally snide way he used to close threads? Every time? Did people think he got better? Dude has issues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity_and_mental_illness), and you can be glad that he's finally addressed why we aren't getting product from him, but don't fool yourself that because we heard from him everything is alright - because everything isn't going to be alright for him. No, there's nothing that say we have to forgive him for the way he mistreated us (thanks, lfm) but then again, I don't think he asked for it. You don't want to be treated like that, get out of the audience.
Axl, Kanye, Boz Scaggs, James Franco, Pablo Picasso, Chevy Chase, Eddie Vedder, Sylvia Plath, Iggy Pop, Lou Reed, Vincent Van Gogh, Hunter S. Thompson, William S. Burroughs, Van Morrison, Elvis Costello, Amy Winehouse, Frank Black, Gene Simmons, James Cameron, Cristian Bale, Ozzy Osbourne, Ritchie Blackmore, Ted Nugent, Ike Turner, Chuck Berry, David Lee Roth, Glen Danzig, Phil Spector, Philip K. Dick, Harlan Ellison, Morrissey.
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http://www.monkeydyne.com/rmcs/
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i had a good cry last night and i wrote a sad poem in my diary. now im ok.
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I nominate this strip (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01252005).
NOOOOOO.
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http://www.monkeydyne.com/rmcs/
Oh, that's genius.
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If one was going to use just one Achewood strip over and over again for the purposes of Achewood-Taiwan and doing it Dinosaur Comics style, I'd think that the strip chosen would have to be the very most recent one, the one that talked about the new beginning and then ended up beginning nothing.
There would be a certain metatextual verve to that, making every strip a reminder that this is a record skipping on the last original strip.
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http://www.monkeydyne.com/rmcs/
Oh Man. Readmeat, just like small times.
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I still have the new mailman strip on my desk.
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I don't know about that. If Smells wrote it it might be pretty good.
And hey, we can just cut and paste the art and it probably wouldn't look any worse. Oh wait - we should do it like the dinosaur comic. Just pick one, and keep changing the dialogue over and over.
If you only knew how good I am at magnetic poetry and mad libs, you would understand how right you are. That's right, I've got an ego about my ability to shoe-horn words into places they don't actually belong.
Also, I have been bugging my husband to draw a comic I write for for some time, but he doesn't have the drive.
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Also, I have been bugging my husband to draw a comic I write for for some time, but he doesn't have the drive.
Nooo! We want to read this!
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Man, say what you like about the Stad, but he looks like a saint compared to some of the fuckin sour-faced entitled whiny grudge-bearing has-been twats in this thread.
Mainly LFM, who seems to think that Onstad isn't acknowledging the role of the proletariat (mostly LFM) in the success of Achewood. Prick.
PS: love and hugs to most people on the thread who aren't human broken records.
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Nooo! We want to read this!
Yeah, he's too tired after work to dedicate himself to such a task, and I can't draw characters consistently. Maybe when I get a computer with more zazz I can find a program to do this for me. The artwork will be shitty. Or pilfered from vintage stock images a la Married to the Sea.
Also, R2DTrousers has clearly never been to an internet funeral before. People will feel how they feel dude. They will be mad with Daddy for leaving them behind. Let it be.
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Eh, if people can bitch about Onstad, then people can bitch about the other guys, too.
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I, for one, don't give a shit. This whole thing reads like a break-up letter. Onstad is asking for 'A Break' because absence makes the heart grow fonder, we should see other people, etc. Its a good one, but any man worth his salt knows how to word craft a break up letter to an insane partner who criticizes comma placement and demands constant attention.
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As I drove around this afternoon I came to a realization. This is a wonderful opportunity for us. Now that the book is closed on Achewood it's time for us to concentrate on the archives.
It is, as Onstad pointed out in his Fuck You letter, it's a huge body of work and it's never, to my knowledge, been given a scholarly analysis. I'm envisioning essays about certain story arcs or specific strips of note. Psychological profiles of the characters can be written, and their interactions with other characters. Maybe dust off that achewiki that's been lying around useless for years. Or maybe someone could register amomentarydiversion dot com and then the real fun could begin. Oh boy!
Or we could at least reread the archives.
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At last Molly can take her rightful place in academic circles as literature's greatest villain.
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Great idea there Paul.
I don't really get most of you. What did Onstad do to you all? He just stopped making comics, or am I missing something? Because he didn't tell you? Does it take that long to check a website every few days?
Thanks for the hella good comic strip Onstrad.
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Two things:
1) I love the idea of Dinosaur-Comixing some old strips. We used to make fan art all the time, remember those days? When we were young and the world was new and a hacked copy of Paintshop Pro could be downloaded without fear? Let's do this again. It was fun.
2) I also love the idea of picking a strip each week (hell, we could go through the archives in order if we wanted to) and just hell of discussing it to death. We got enough scholarly types with nowhere else to blow off steam to keep it going (the Title X thread is proof enough of that). I say, do it and I'll show up for the ball.
Bonus thing: I have discovered lately that when I'm annoyed with people I start to sound, inside my head, like Asherdan. Wombat, your figments are cross-pollinating, no more spicy food before bedtime.
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2) I also love the idea of picking a strip each week (hell, we could go through the archives in order if we wanted to) and just hell of discussing it to death. We got enough scholarly types with nowhere else to blow off steam to keep it going (the Title X thread is proof enough of that). I say, do it and I'll show up for the ball.
Bonus thing: I have discovered lately that when I'm annoyed with people I start to sound, inside my head, like Asherdan.
This made me actually laugh out loud.
Only one strip a week? Why not one per weekday. We can create the ideal world where Achewood updated every day.
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That would be about the funniest thing in the world... in terms of concept but not in terms of execution.
A Taiwan-style government-in-exile Achewood generated by fans while the creator is busy charging three bucks a month on scans of his doodles on subscription cards while waiting in the dentist's office.
It would be a bad idea and probably disasterous but the concept is hilarious.
Web idea: Chop up all of the achewood panels.
Chop up all of the dialogue.
Make a web database spit them out daily in a William S Burroughs cut up machine fashion. Maybe a moderator pulls 10, and puts the most cohesive one up.
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This made me actually laugh out loud.
Only one strip a week? Why not one per weekday. We can create the ideal world where Achewood updated every day.
One strip a week, but the idea is that there would be multiple versions of it. So with enough of us posting, it could update every day, several times a day.
Imagine!
Edit: This is what I get for not reading my own quoted sentences. I thought you were talking about item #1. Blurgh.
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These are all brilliant ideas.
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Hey, I just realized my tiny chances of being able to get another Ray Prime Time Lime shirt just got even tinier.
schmegma and blort!
how much trouble d'you think someone would get in if they made their own merch?
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That is not a brilliant idea.
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I bought Great Leader's bootleg GOF shirt a few years back and wore it till it basically fell apart.
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I, for one, don't give a shit.
This.
Like, I have never gone out of my way to meet writers whose work I admire. If they are jerks, I don't want to know it. Why spoil the work because you get cross at the person?
This (although maybe I'm the only person here who can separate the art from the artist? Mostly I really don't give a shit).
I don't really get most of you. What did Onstad do to you all? He just stopped making comics, or am I missing something? Because he didn't tell you? Does it take that long to check a website every few days?
Thanks for the hella good comic strip Onstrad.
And especially this.
A lot of bands that I've loved have fizzled out without explanation or announcement, or maybe were even dicks about it, and though I've been bummed that I won't hear any new music from them, it's not like I felt I put my life on hold. Same thing with Onstad.
But I get the frustration, and I guess he could have been more gracious about it.
Anyway, make some of this shit happen!
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the problem, the more I think about it, is partially the tension between all of the "art can be a job, writing can be a job, it is a real job. Would you do your job for free? no. You wouldn't. So give me money"
and everyone else in the world's experiences of what a job is like. You don't get your fancy "I'm an artist" excuses AND your "this is my job, it is a real job" arguments.
either artists are mystical beings struck by moonbeams, and sometimes they run out of moonbeams and have to journey inside of their own dreams, or they aren't. not both.
I sometimes do have trouble separating the art from the artist. I don't know. I guess I could imagine a world in which Steve Albini made music that I didn't hate, even though he is the biggest cockbag in the (music) universe. There have been points where I have tried to listen to his music and understand what makes it good.
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Yeah, I read this interview with Isaac Brock where he talks about running over dogs in the bands van after taking speed. Also, when he came to OKC he got wasted and cut the microphone cord and accidentally slit his wrist and had to stop playing (I thought this was bad ass, but I am sure others would disagree.) I was pretty young when I read the interview, so I don't know if he was joking or not, but I still like his music.
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the problem, the more I think about it, is partially the tension between all of the "art can be a job, writing can be a job, it is a real job. Would you do your job for free? no. You wouldn't. So give me money"
and everyone else in the world's experiences of what a job is like. You don't get your fancy "I'm an artist" excuses AND your "this is my job, it is a real job" arguments.
Well, you know, too bad you don't think it's fair, because that's how it is. And if we want to have art in the world, we just have to put up with it.
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Well, you know, too bad you don't think it's fair, because that's how it is. And if we want to have art in the world, we just have to put up with it.
Yeah, but then we get to bitch and moan about it. That's our privilege.
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Yeah, but then we get to bitch and moan about it. That's our privilege.
Kind of a cycle there.
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Kind of a cycle there.
It's the circle of life! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX07j9SDFcc)
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Or I could just keep downloading albums off the Internet for free. Everyone wins!
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Well, you know, too bad you don't think it's fair, because that's how it is. And if we want to have art in the world, we just have to put up with it.
This is actually completely untrue. A big part of the reason I began walking away from work as a professional artist came from my trip to Indonesia. In Bali especially, which is an island intensely rich in the arts, there is the philosophy that making art is a basic function of being human, along with eating, breathing, fuck*ng, etc. Much like you wouldn't expect to be paid to eat or breathe, the concept of art as a thing you get paid for, rather than a necessary human need is something that doesn't connect there. I agree with this - humans need to express themselves creatively and to share in creative expression of others, and I've been turned off to the idea of art as a commodity since then. Once I saw how engaged Balinese people are in the arts - far more so than any North American environment I'd ever been in - it convinced me that I had things framed wrong in my mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy when I get a little cash for my art, but it's not why I do it. I do it because it's a need and because it's pleasurable. That shift has made my life a lot easier to navigate, and has actually led me to a better financial position, because making art as a job is basically not that lucrative except for for a very small minority.
As for ‘jacking the strip, I’m all for it. I would love to do it. Don’t have the tech skills to move forward without assistance, but I would love to. I wasn't joking.
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That's the difference between the artist and the patron, I think. If I want to listen to Danzig, I have to accept and live with (at some level) the fact that the guy is an utter douchebag.
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Smells, I am glad that giving up getting money for your creative work is working for you. But given that North American society isn't going to turn into Bali any time soon, if we want art, we need to be willing to pay for it.
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That's what killed Beck for me. Learning more and more how much of a jerk he was, and then seeing him live and him being utterly lifeless towards the audience.
I guess that goes for the previously subscript mentioned Frank Black Francis as well. The guy has a rich musical heritage behind him, and he also has new stuff that inspires him. Whenever I see him, he trots out the old favorites and you can tell he's just sick, sick to DEATH of them. So he plays them half-halfheartedly, and poorly. Then he puts his energy into his new stuff.
To me it always comes off as so much of a "fuck you for liking my music, but not the right music of mine!" The bigger problem, is I LIKE his music. A LOT. But whenever I see him I have to put up with the Piss-Poor-Pixies-Musical-Power-Half-Hour. I'd rather he just not play any of it at all and get on with his show, and not spend time sucking the energy and the will to enjoy life out of the room.
Big fat baby-man. Fuck you. You're still on restriction!
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I just wanted him to play Robert Onion - was that so fuck*ng wrong?
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See also: why I never want to listen to the Magnetic Fields again after seeing them live.
This is a case where I can't see any argument against "it's your job, man. People are paying you to play these songs."
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To me it always comes off as so much of a "fuck you for liking my music, but not the right music of mine!" The bigger problem, is I LIKE his music. A LOT. But whenever I see him I have to put up with the Piss-Poor-Pixies-Musical-Power-Half-Hour. I'd rather he just not play any of it at all and get on with his show, and not spend time sucking the energy and the will to enjoy life out of the room.
Yeah, that's a tough one for him and you. You wish he would just skip the half assed Pixie's section of his show. He wishes he could skip it too. I mean, that's what Pixies reunion shows are for, right? But the 100 assholes at the front of the stage screaming Pixies request are demanding he play those old songs.
If he were stronger he would just simply not play them and let the complainers go hang. Then again, if he didn't play those old songs a good portion of his audience would evaporate.
I guess he should be more professional about it though. If he's gonna play them then he should do it to the best of his ability.
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If you follow Mike Doughty on Twitter then you know he thinks 90% of Soul Coughing songs are utter shit and doesn't want to be associated with them.
It's too bad Frank Black can't just not play songs for a while then unmothball them after 10 years when he's no longer sick of them. But I guess you need a really deep catalog like TMBG to really pull that off.
Edit: Or just stick to your guns. Supposedly Beastie Boys haven't performed Fight for Your Right since the late 80s since most fans didn't get the song was supposed to be a parody/insult to people like the speaker
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The Stones still play their old shit (they sort of have to) but Keith plays the songs completely differently now. Of course, you play Satisfaction 10,000 times and it probably loses its allure.
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The Stones still play their old shit (they sort of have to) but Keith plays the songs completely differently now. Of course, you play Satisfaction 10,000 times and it probably loses its allure.
And if Cracked is to be believe he hates Satisfaction.
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Maybe. I saw an interview where he basically said that it bought him a villa in France and a mound of smack as high as an elephant's eye, so who knows?
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On the topic of paying for creative work:
You pay 5.99 for a mocha, dude. Why would you not pay it for a book?
http://yuki-onna.livejournal.com/636473.html (http://yuki-onna.livejournal.com/636473.html)
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Tried really hard not to stop reading at "a song is a part of a whole." I don't buy that.
I'm sure I will live to be embarrassed that I once said this, but I will never pay money for an e-book or an mp3. That just doesn't compute. If I pay for a book I want to have the book. On paper.
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Smells, I am glad that giving up getting money for your creative work is working for you. But given that North American society isn't going to turn into Bali any time soon, if we want art, we need to be willing to pay for it.
Or become empowered to make it for each other.
I'm not talking about not paying for art, but the reverse of everyone making art and not expecting to be paid to create it, and to be damn grateful if you're lucky enough to be. As I think someone should feel damn lucky to be paid to eat (food critic) or breath (those born into wealth).
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I'm sure I will live to be embarrassed that I once said this, but I will never pay money for an e-book or an mp3. That just doesn't compute. If I pay for a book I want to have the book. On paper.
I once thought that. That was before I ran out of space for even one more bookshelf in this whole house.
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Tried really hard not to stop reading at "a song is a part of a whole." I don't buy that.
I'm sure I will live to be embarrassed that I once said this, but I will never pay money for an e-book or an mp3. That just doesn't compute. If I pay for a book I want to have the book. On paper.
I'll begin paying for e-books when they invent a universal format that works on any device. This is why I've been paying for mp3s since 1999 but have never used the iTunes "store" and have it parental blocked so it doesn't take up precious space in my side-bar.
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I said that thing about the universal format too, but it was also finally outweighed by the pile of books threatening to crush the life out of me.
I do have a couple that are PDFs which is universal enough for me.
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I am trying to learn to use libraries, since I already have too many books I want to get rid of leftover from school (at some point in my life, I thought one day I might want to re-read Leviathan and Plato's Republic), but recently I bought some books with a giftcard I found in my luggage. Oops.
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I'm sure I will live to be embarrassed that I once said this, but I will never pay money for an e-book or an mp3. That just doesn't compute. If I pay for a book I want to have the book. On paper.
Why? The author never touched that paper. Or probably any paper these days. Probably they email the manuscript to their editor. Nothing magic about the medium, its the effort of writing/composing/recording, plus whatever ineffable quality there is to "art" that you (should be) are paying for.
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I said that thing about the universal format too, but it was also finally outweighed by the pile of books threatening to crush the life out of me.
Tell me about it. And I live in California (7 miles from the Hayward Fault!) so that is actually a realistic fate scenario for me. Sadly the bookshelves have been relegated to the garage, because although crushing me is a risk/reward benefit my wife was willing to entertain, having our spawn buried under Robert Parker's ouvre and an exhaustive collection of martial art references was unacceptable.
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Probably they email the manuscript to their editor.
This is correct. I got the contracts and the checks on paper; no other paper has been involved.
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Why? The author never touched that paper. Or probably any paper these days. Probably they email the manuscript to their editor. Nothing magic about the medium, its the effort of writing/composing/recording, plus whatever ineffable quality there is to "art" that you (should be) are paying for.
I like having books on paper for a few reasons. I like to be able to read in places where it is more comfortable/convenient to have a book than a device (bathtub is one that comes to mind). I like the experience of reading the printed word. Also, as I get older, a luxury I am exploring is signed/first editions.
Not that I'm against e-books. I have some on my phone.
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I love print books way too much to ever give them up. I love their smell. I love abusing them and wearing them down over several re-readings. I love old books that have been read by many other eyes and show that wear and tear. I love treating books with total disregard and finding sand in them from a past visit to the beach, a stain from when I fell asleep in the tub, a leaf or flower pressed between the pages that brings me back to another time and place. I love piling up books. I love finding a book I forgot about because it fell behind something. I love pacing my reading by looking at where my book mark sits and I love the feeling of the journey through the pages, the anticipation and sorrow when I seen I'm down to a couple millimeters worth of pages left on a good book. I love my shelves of books, in all their colour and disarray. I love how the experience of a physical book can take me back to that first reading, or remind me, when unread, of a promising future where I have time to read more.
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Back on topic: since I am lying on the couch feeling sick and there is nothing on TV, I am listening to this podcast so you don't have to:
http://ww.libsyn.com/webcomics-weekly-78-creative-vs-commerce (http://ww.libsyn.com/webcomics-weekly-78-creative-vs-commerce)
Four long-time webcomics guys are complaining about Onstad's blog post. Briefly, they agree with many of you that think he is a whiner and he should have thanked the readers. Also a lot of stuff about art and commerce. And the creative process.
If you decide to listen, note that they don't manage to get started on the topic till about 25 minutes in.
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I love physical books but I hate owning and storing stuff, so I'm constantly at odds with myself. I try to get things at the library, since I don't have an e-reader, but I'll also buy a book used and then sell it back unless I really think I'll use it again.
I've found that knitting books and cookbooks -- or really anything that contains really useful reference information -- are worth keeping around. But at this point, the only reason I'd ever want to buy physical book that wasn't nonfiction would be either (a) to read in the tub/at the beach or (b) if I loved it so much I wanted a copy to loan out to friends.
I solve (a) by using magazines for that purpose and (b) by not having friends.
I do love magazines. There's a certain impermanence about them that appeals to me. They're a very low-commitment reading experience, which is about all I have time for these days.
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By the way, I don't have an ereader either. I downloaded the Kindle software to my laptop. I am finding it's just as comfortable to read as an actual Kindle.
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I didn't know you could do that. I have a netbook, that would be very convenient.
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I do love magazines. There's a certain impermanence about them that appeals to me. They're a very low-commitment reading experience, which is about all I have time for these days.
I stopped reading magazines the day I bought a Tivo. I quickly realized I did 99% of my magazine reading while "watching" the shows that were on in between the shows I actually wanted to watch. Like whatever Comedy Central used to put on between the 7pm Daily Show rerun and primetime. Once I got a Tivo and no longer had to watch those shows I no longer had a reason to pick up a magazine. My novel reading did pick-up, though.
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If you decide to listen, note that they don't manage to get started on the topic till about 25 minutes in.
Lazy cocksuckers. Fuck those guys.
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they agree with many of you that think he is a whiner and he should have thanked the readers. Also a lot of stuff about art and commerce. And the creative process.
Oh man. These guys are such soulless hucksters in the other direction that I WANT to sympathize with Onstad's position more than I do.
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I like books too, but would drop them like a bad habit if I had an ereader. What I'm learning from this thread though is that they need to make them more water resistant.
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I've got the Kindle software on my phone. So far I've only used it while I'm riding a stationary bike. I like it. But I'll never give up books. Never.
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I don't understand why discussions of ebooks ALWAYS end up being about either/or. I don't think anyone is suggesting paper books are ever going to completely go away.
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Oh man. These guys are such soulless hucksters in the other direction that I WANT to sympathize with Onstad's position more than I do.
LFM hates everybody!
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Well, it sounds like most people in here are cool with having both except for Paul, who of course is a philistine.
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I don't understand why discussions of ebooks ALWAYS end up being about either/or. I don't think anyone is suggesting paper books are ever going to completely go away.
I've got an either or mind on this one. I don't want to appear to support the e-book movement in any way. It's my alligence with struggling small house booksellers. I'll be one of the last hold outs for sure.
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I think that actually ebooks are going to make small publishers more viable and this can only be good for the book business in the long run. In fact the last thing I bought was direct from a small publisher I'd never heard of before.
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Burn all books. Fahrenheit 451 bitches.
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LFM hates everybody!
To be fair, that podcast sucks. I haven't even gotten to the part about Onstad and I am ready to delete it. They have absolutely nothing to say.
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Oh, it's that Scott Kurtz dude. Didn't we once have a thread specifically about how much Scott Kurtz sucks?
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Oh, it's that Scott Kurtz dude. Didn't we once have a thread specifically about how much Scott Kurtz sucks?
Found it! http://touamb.com/index.php/topic,3540.0.html
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To be fair, that podcast sucks. I haven't even gotten to the part about Onstad and I am ready to delete it. They have absolutely nothing to say.
Really, you should just fast forward 25 minutes in. They overestimate how fascinating their random conversation is, but when they are on topic, some of it is interesting.
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It's real depressing to hear these artless hacks making the same points that we have been.
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I thought there were some interesting points from the creator's point of view - like they talk about what exactly is so horrible about repeating yourself a little? I think it is true that lots of variations on the same theme is something that doesn't bother the readers until it gets quite excessive.
But then later on some of the discussion is based on assumptions, some of which are them trying to read his mind, and others are wrong - like they seem to be unaware that he sold self-published books for years.
Also, I think the guy who does Sheldon is not an artless hack. I dunno the others though so maybe he is running with a bad crowd.
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Also, I think the guy who does Sheldon is not an artless hack. I dunno the others though so maybe he is running with a bad crowd.
The only one I know is Kurtz. His comic is pretty lame. I think I've seen chainsaw suit, but not sure. Someone posted it on this board at one time I do believe. It left no impression on me.
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I like the idea of "running with a bad crowd" of webcomic creators.
I think my artist friends have fallen in with a bad crowd of really mediocre artists. They are undermining their gallery by showing bad art by their friends, and showcasing bad music by their friends. But I guess that is what it takes to network.
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Yeah, Scott Kurtz is such a fuck*ng dick that I'd almost wanna be wrong and on Onstad's side than right and on Kurtz's.
PvP is basically everything that's wrong with web-comics, someone who could draw capably but was a fuck*ng soulless business shill first and foremost saw a fuck*ng market vacuum for "the Garfield for video game nerds", filled that motherfucker up with his septic +5 Cock of Demographic Pandering and rakes a little more cash out of his Devoted Category with every twist of his wretched sausage.
While independent comics/webcomics certainly CAN be a profession and a business with luck, talent and/or shameless calculation, they don't have to be... they can just be a hobby for some people or a side-line to make a little bread without aspirations toward a full-time career and Kurtz can't wrap his money-grubbing little fuck*ng mind around that idea.
Time and time again, the dude projects onto everyone else in the world that they're drawing and sharing their drawings with people ONLY because they're trying to find their angle to get the Charlie Brown Money Dumptruck backed up to their front-doors because that's all he sees comics as and... anyone who isn't trying for that with comics is either underachieving or doing it wrong.
Ugh. I like that the dude agrees that Onstad clearly needed to show some humility, class and appreciation of the fact that critics and fans built him the platform upon which his art was appreciated and turned into something that could be a lucrative full-time job because that's where Onstad completely COMPLETELY fucked this up.
BUT I hate that a dude who uses the word "undermonitized" in a sentence like it is the greatest sin in the world is saying it.
There's gotta be a middle ground between Onstad being a thin-skinned overly-selfexamined auteur and Kurtz being a douchebag whose only creative concern is what image would be able to sell the most lunchboxes to people who would never actually use the lunchbox, only display it on their wall.
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So, Onstad's MySpace page still offers some items for sale, but the actual Achewood page does not. It appears you can click through and buy the things on the MySpace page (although the only things offered are three posters). What's the dealio with that, do you suppose?
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There is the possibility that myspace is so out of the zeitgeist that to log onto it is to literally communicate with three years ago.
Sort of like "The Lake House" except with self-pic spam bots makin' duckface at you.
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I like LFM's theory, but I'm guessing it was easier to leave a few things up for sale on MySpace than on the website where it was easier to just take the whole store down.
You know, it is OK with me if he stops writing the comic, but dammit, why not sell stuff? I want a new apron. New people who find the comic will want to buy stuff. People who buy the Dark hoss books will want to buy stuff.
I get what you say, LFM, about Kurtz going too far about the "monetize" thing, but I also sort of see what he's saying. Another thing those guys discuss at length is how crazy it seems, from the point of view of another creator, that someone successful would just walk away from it. I can understand if he is done writing it and wants to do other things creatively, but why not keep selling stuff if only to bring in cash while those new projects aren't making money yet. Lots of creative work keeps making money after it is done. If you're lucky enough to be making royalties off a book that's already published you don't turn them down because you're working on a new book. And aren't they still selling products with Peanuts on them long after the creator is DEAD, for pete's sake?
Of course maybe there are factors I don't understand about how much trouble it is too sell stuff vs how much sales slow down once there aren't new updates. But again - there aren't new updates of Peanuts, right? And couldn't he pack up my apron for shipping while he's watching TV in the evening or something? Does it really have to cut into novel-writing time? Dammit, I want a new apron.
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In the next Touambies, I hope this phrase gets "Most awesome display of bilious writing":
...someone who could draw capably but was a fuck*ng soulless business shill first and foremost saw a fuck*ng market vacuum for "the Garfield for video game nerds", filled that motherfucker up with his septic +5 Cock of Demographic Pandering and rakes a little more cash out of his Devoted Category with every twist of his wretched sausage.
Needless to say, that's a canning.
Why do you think the Penny Arcade guys have a soft spot for Kurtz (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/9/29/)?
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Why do you think the Penny Arcade guys have a soft spot for Kurtz (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/9/29/)?
I finally found a Penny Arcade strip that made me laugh (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/10/15/).
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That would be funny if the art didn't make me want to claw my eyes out.
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The only thing I got a problem with is, did Onstad actually take money from people and not deliver the product they paid for?
The rest of it is just being a precious artist. Fine. But that there is the dick move, if it happened. Did it?
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Sounds like it - I'll let you all know if I ever get my poster that I just ordered.
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The only thing I got a problem with is, did Onstad actually take money from people and not deliver the product they paid for?
The rest of it is just being a precious artist. Fine. But that there is the dick move, if it happened. Did it?
Yeah, that is true.
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The only thing I got a problem with is, did Onstad actually take money from people and not deliver the product they paid for?
The rest of it is just being a precious artist. Fine. But that there is the dick move, if it happened. Did it?
I did pay for that 2nd cookbook
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I think I might have ordered the cookbook too, did he actually take money for that? Hmm. I don't even know where to look for a record of it at this point.
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I think I might have ordered the cookbook too, did he actually take money for that? Hmm. I don't even know where to look for a record of it at this point.
I ordered the cookbook and a shirt at the same time so I paid for both but only got the shirt. A while later I got an e-mail the the cookbook was coming soon.
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I ordered the cookbook and a shirt at the same time so I paid for both but only got the shirt. A while later I got an e-mail the the cookbook was coming soon.
that damn elusive chicken recipe....
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Maybe this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Pimpernel) has your cookbook.
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"New Chapbook in the Fanflow, but a line of computer code is broken."
But hey, don't just pay for the cocktail napkins you can't even access right now!
Also put money in the tip jar, to keep the site running so smoothly. But it... isn't... running... smoothly.
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"New Chapbook in the Fanflow, but a line of computer code is broken."
But hey, don't just pay for the cocktail napkins you can't even access right now!
Also put money in the tip jar, to keep the site running so smoothly. But it... isn't... running... smoothly.
If you want to come to Portland and beat his ass, you can stay at my house for a while. He doesn't seem like he would be that tough.
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If you want to come to Portland and beat his ass, you can stay at my house for a while. He doesn't seem like he would be that tough.
TUBBY NERD FIGHT!!!
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Nabu you have to promise to take photos!
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Nabu you have to promise to take photos!
I'm pretty smart - I bet I could figure out how to stream it over the internet.
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TUBBY NERD FIGHT!!!
can for a chuckle, dogg.
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Lose the shirts, and make it jell-o wrestling, and I'd pay had cash for a live feed of that.
Hey Onstad! I figured out how you can monetize your writer's block!
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If you want to come to Portland and beat his ass, you can stay at my house for a while. He doesn't seem like he would be that tough.
I first read that as "you can stay at his house" as in, he's so not tough that you can beat his ass and then make him put you up for the night.
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I first read that as "you can stay at his house" as in, he's so not tough that you can beat his ass and then make him put you up for the night.
his wife and daughter all cowering in the corner as tears of shame fall down their faces....
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I'm pretty smart - I bet I could figure out how to stream it over the internet.
Says the guy who sniveled over a little command line editing of a vlc script...
I keed, I keed. ;)
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you just got called out, migg. are you gonna let him get away with that?
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It did kinda read like the little speech a politician gives at the end of the night when he knows he's probably gonna lose but flabbityflurb.
Coming in late, but it's never too late to say "fuck you".
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Says the guy who sniveled over a little command line editing of a vlc script...
I keed, I keed. ;)
CHING-CHONG, WING-WONG
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I'm just now getting around to reading an article (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/04/11/110411fa_fact_miller) in a recent New Yorker about George RR Martin and the complaints he's been getting for YEARS about the lack of a new Song of Ice and Fire book:
The online attacks on Martin suggest that some readers have a new idea about what an author owes them. They see themselves as customers, not devotees, and they expect prompt, consistent service. Martin, who is sixty-two, told me that Franck calls the disaffected readers the Entitlement Generation: “He thinks they’re all younger people, teens and twenties. And that their generation just wants what they want, and they want it now. If you don’t give it to them, they’re pissed off.”
Sounds familiar, no?
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I meant to post that here and somehow forgot. You all should read it, whatever side of this Battle of the Whines you are on, it's great.
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I refuse to start reading Ice and Fire (or watching Game of Thrones) until the whole series is done. I don't want to be one of those people anxiously/annoyedly awaiting the next book. Then needing to reread the whole series when it finally does come out because I've forgotten what happened.
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I wonder what gave them the idea they were customers?
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I refuse to start reading Ice and Fire (or watching Game of Thrones) until the whole series is done. I don't want to be one of those people anxiously/annoyedly awaiting the next book. Then needing to reread the whole series when it finally does come out because I've forgotten what happened.
I'm this way with Star Wars. Who needs the fuck*ng aggravation?
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And I still maintain that if you are writing a serial you have an obligation to your readers to finish it.
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And I still maintain that if you are writing a serial you have an obligation to your readers to finish it.
It's people like you who drove Conan Doyle to believing in fairies.
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And I still maintain that if you are writing a serial you have an obligation to your readers to finish it.
Or in the case of Stephen King, and the Dark Tower: fuck*ng knock it off already. You finished it. Quit it. You loon.
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GOD those last dark tower books destroyed my enjoyment of the first three. now i hear he's working on another. whatever, i'm done, ain't gonna read it. felcher.
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And I still maintain that if you are writing a serial you have an obligation to your readers to finish it.
But unless you have your release schedule announced ahead of time, are you obligated to spend every waking hour working on said serial until it is done?
I'd rather GRRM take the time to write a book he thinks is good enough to release rather than rushing it because the internet wants it yesterday.
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And I still maintain that if you are writing a serial you have an obligation to your readers to finish it.
Hm.
Can you mention this to Piers Anthony so he will stop spewing out whatever it is he does?
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GOD those last dark tower books destroyed my enjoyment of the first three. now i hear he's working on another. whatever, i'm done, ain't gonna read it. felcher.
I've been reading them on and off for a couple of years, I'm up to wolves of Canaan (I think that's what it's called, the one after wizard and glass, which I thought was a bit tangential but alright for what it was). Should I not cause myself myself the pain of knowledge and just imagine what could have been?
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But unless you have your release schedule announced ahead of time, are you obligated to spend every waking hour working on said serial until it is done?
I don't have a personal stake in the debate because I never read serials. They almost all suck.
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And to be fair, I don't... think I ever said that the guy didn't have a RIGHT to erect a paywall.
I just thought it was disingenuous to move so much of the peripheral material to it mid-stream (when he used to occasionally did something on that earlier paywall thing, I wasn't nearly as offended as when he moved ALL the blogs and peripheral material except the strips to the paywall) and...
More importantly, I thought it would be creatively stifling (which might still be part of his problem) and I thought it would be bad for business in the long run.
If you're making six figures selling books and shirts because people keep coming to your site every day for the little blogs and sketches and whatever between the sparse actual strip updates, why would you limit the growth of your fanbase by shoving that all behind a paywall? That's the thing that's most madnessing. It's like slitting the goose that lays the golden eggs because you no longer have the feature to draw in NEW hardcore fans.
You're just skimming three bucks a month off the old fans instead of bringing in new ones to buy hundreds of dollars of shirts and books every month. That's what drove me up a fuck*ng wall more than anything.
Maybe I said at some point he didn't have a "right" but I'm sure I was being stupid that day. Some days I forget my anxiety medicine to be blunt about it and I apologize for that.
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wait, he kept writing the blogs? I can read more blog posts if I pay the three bucks? I remember liking the blogs a lot.
Hm.
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wait, he kept writing the blogs? I can read more blog posts if I pay the three bucks? I remember liking the blogs a lot.
Hm.
I liked the blogs a lot too.
Maybe Chris is just a shitty businessman.
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I've been reading them on and off for a couple of years, I'm up to wolves of Canaan (I think that's what it's called, the one after wizard and glass, which I thought was a bit tangential but alright for what it was). Should I not cause myself myself the pain of knowledge and just imagine what could have been?
YYYYEEEEEESSSSSSSSS
if i could un-read wizard&glass and everything after, i would
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What about skipping to the last one? I want some closure, damnit.
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I want some closure, damnit.
amen. im on the wolf one, too. i noticed that it has gotten sketchy after the third one, just like everyone said, but im seeing this through to the end.
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skip to the like fifth from the last page of the last one, and be warned: i wanted closure, too.
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Occam called, he needs a trim.
But... Occam is the one with the razor, wouldn't they be calling him for a trim?
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i think every artist has an intrinsic right to be bat-shit insane to an extent that their worldview makes absolutely no rational sense.
i think that most, if not all, artists who aren't bat-shit insane don't usually make great art.
i think that the creator of a good or product of any sort has the right to say "fuck it, i quit" in exactly the same way that any service worker or laborer has.
i think that if a creator of art produces a product loved and adored to such an extent that his or her fanbase gets pissed off when they cease producing more of it
gets pissed off because their fanbase loves his or her product that much that they are bat-shit insane.
LIFE IS A CIRCLE OF LIFE.
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But unless you have your release schedule announced ahead of time, are you obligated to spend every waking hour working on said serial until it is done?
I'd rather GRRM take the time to write a book he thinks is good enough to release rather than rushing it because the internet wants it yesterday.
I'm not saying this is wrong. I'm just saying because of his track-record I'm waiting for the last book to come out before I buy the first one. It's not like he's some unknown author where the publisher might drop him because the existing books aren't selling well enough. The fear of that is part of why I've been buying the Malazan Book of the Fallen series in hardcover as they come out.
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I'm not saying this is wrong. I'm just saying because of his track-record I'm waiting for the last book to come out before I buy the first one. It's not like he's some unknown author where the publisher might drop him because the existing books aren't selling well enough. The fear of that is part of why I've been buying the Malazan Book of the Fallen series in hardcover as they come out.
This is why I don't watch TV - I can't take the chance that they won't be able to follow through the whole creative arc and achieve the finish they want to deliver. Unfortunately other people do the same, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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This is why I don't watch TV - I can't take the chance that they won't be able to follow through the whole creative arc and achieve the finish they want to deliver. Unfortunately other people do the same, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I was going to ignore Dollhouse just for this reason but my girlfriend at the time insisted we watch. Though I did give up on both Lost and BSG when the writers admitted that while they implied a huge story arc they were making it up as they went.
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I just finished Dollhouse, actually -- I'd watched season one about a year ago but season 2 wasn't on netflix yet and it took me a while to get back around to it. I'm glad I finished; season 2 was very gratifying.
I started Firefly yesterday, looking forward to that. I'm still having trouble with hosss and train robberies on far-flung planets, but whatever. It's fun.
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I just finished Dollhouse, actually -- I'd watched season one about a year ago but season 2 wasn't on netflix yet and it took me a while to get back around to it. I'm glad I finished; season 2 was very gratifying.
Oh man, I couldn't agree more. Season 1 was a bunch of "What can we show her ass and legs in this week?" (Which... I enjoy) but Season 2, especially towards the end, got into the nuts and bolts of the Dollhouse and how the entire operation was run. That was SO much more interesting than the "Mystery of the Week" format they had running for most of the show.
I think if the rotating cast and scenery of the clients was more of a background component and the Dollhouse/Corporate intrigue was more of a foreground component, they could have gone a lot farther with the show before it got the axe.
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Oh man, I couldn't agree more. Season 1 was a bunch of "What can we show her ass and legs in this week?" (Which... I enjoy) but Season 2, especially towards the end, got into the nuts
So I should stop watching after season 1 then.
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I started Firefly yesterday, looking forward to that.
:-[
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Firefly rocks.
On a related note, I avoided Firefly for a long time because I thought it was another show that I caught one episode of once upon a time. That other show was aboard a spaceship. There were aliens on the crew. There were no Aliens on Firefly. What might that other show have been?
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So I should stop watching after season 1 then.
No, they still experiment to see what Eliza Dushku's ass and legs look like in various outfits.
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Firefly rocks.
On a related note, I avoided Firefly for a long time because I thought it was another show that I caught one episode of once upon a time. That other show was aboard a spaceship. There were aliens on the crew. There were no Aliens on Firefly. What might that other show have been?
Star Trek? I don't have much to go on here, man.
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Andromeda, Babylon 5, Cleopatra 2025, Deep Space Nine, Earth 2...
I couldn't think of something else for an F, so I'll stop there.
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Farscape.
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Andromeda
Have I mentioned that that Kevin Sorbo is the worst actor ever? Have I mentioned also, that I am obsessed with watching him act badly? Lately I've watched a couple of his recent post Hercules post Andromeda movies. Pure shit, both of them.
He plays a priest in both films. The latest one is a real preachy Christian Drama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_If..._%28film%29). It's just awful and he's awful in it.
But I haven't seen Andromeda, mainly because it's not available for instant view on Netflix. So maybe that's the one. This was probably 10 years ago. I guess I need to put it in my queue.
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Farscape.
YES! That is definitely it!
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farscape was an amazing series and was robbed of its audience by the scifi network jerking it around the schedule
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farscape was an amazing series and was robbed of its audience by the scifi network jerking it around the schedule
Agreed. Though Paul has mentioned his distaste for it in the past.
I think it also suffered some of the same fate as Alias/and Whedon show. It appeals to a certain audience who watches new episodes ravenously but never watches the repeats. And the long arcs make it difficult for new viewers to start watching so they don't.
I started to rewatch it from the beginning but my TiVo got all pissy about the other shows I have taking up all it's space. I have all of Stargate: Universe on there. I recorded it on a whim figuring it would suck Atlantis-style but people I respect on Twitter say it's actually quite terrific.
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Agreed. Though Paul has mentioned his distaste for it in the past.
Yeah, that's true, but something has changed. I don't know what happened, but I love these trashy shows now. I mean, I still can't stand shit like 24 or CSI or any of the other unrealistic bullshit programs if they take themselves too seriously. If it's stupid, but campy I love it.
Xena is the gold standard of this. Hercules is awesome and Kevin Sorbo can't act his way out of a paper bag. Firefly was a really great show and I was sad when I ran out of episodes so quickly. Battlestar Galactica was utterly preposterous. I had to keep watching just to see what retarded plot development was coming next. I loved every minute of it. I've seen one episode of Farscape so far and it was pretty dang good. I've also been watching Flash Gordon serials from the 30s. They are just awful and I can't get enough of it.
I mean... I never watched any of those shows when they were new because I thought they all sucked. And obviously, I watched an episode of Farscape back then and am on record here as saying as much.. Beats the hell out of me, but whatever. Why question it?
Oh yeah! Also, Kolchak: The Night Stalker. Love it!
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Battlestar Galactica was utterly preposterous. I had to keep watching just to see what retarded plot development was coming next.
Damnit that show was SO GOOD at the start of it. It had some really acute political messages to the point where half the time you thought the humans were the bad guys, and then: BOB DYLAN SPACE ANGEL TIME TRAVEL GOD STUFF.
The follow up show "Caprica" had a really neat Neo-noir feel. The characters were compelling. The acting was good. All that, I had trouble liking it, because it was the first chapter in a book that ended with BOB DYLAN SPACE ANGEL TIME TRAVEL GOD STUFF.
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Oh yeah! Also, Kolchak: The Night Stalker. Love it!
Batting a thousand today, Paul.